amino vs pro ?

***ennio78*** · 05-03-2004, 09:58:09

...

Perché non prenderli tutti e due?!?

Quale sarebbe il problema?!?

Io credo che entrambi siano ottimi integratori che ormai da tempo datato vengono utilizzati nel BB.

Ennio

ps io prendo sia pro che BccA..

**wildcat** · 05-03-2004, 10:32:58

E' vero che le proteine sono composte da amminoacidi, ma nel BB l'equazione non è proteine=amminoacidi.
Comunemente un BBer per amminoacidi intende i BCAA, i cosidetti ramificati (x la loro struttura chimica), non amminoacidi in senso lato.
Questi sono 3 amminoacidi (leucina, isoleucina, valina) che possono essere deamminati e utilizzati a scopo energetico solo nel muscolo striato, ricoprendo così nell'integrazione un ruolo proenergetico e anticatabolico, di grande aiuto per mantenere alta l'intensità (e minimizzare il catabolismo) nei periodi di dieta più ristretta.
Per cui hanno un ruolo complementare all'assunzione proteica, non essenziale ma senz'altro utile (nel senso che si possno avere ottimi risultati anche senza assumere BCAA, ma se la dieta è bassa di proteine...).
Mi lascia un po' perplesso il quantitativo di MINIMO 2 g x Kg di peso... non ti sembra un po' eccessivo, soprattutto x fegato e rene?
Non è che tutto l'eccesso proteica diventi muscolo, anczi, più facilmente viene deamminato e utilizzato a scopo energetico o di accumulo.
Attualmente si parla più ragionevolmente di 1,5 - 2 g si, ma x kg di massa magra.
Poi ognuno avrà sicuramente un'opinione diversa.
Personalmente sto x sperimentare il freamine, un prodotto che usiamo in ospedale x le sacche di nutrizione parenterale: è una polvere, una miscela bilanciata di amminoacidi essenziali e non, pensavo di assumerla dopo allenamento assieme a del banale zucchero x sfruttare l'insulina e l'aumentata sensibilità muscolare x riempire il muscolo di nutrienti plastici.

**bboy18** · 05-03-2004, 14:01:44

Originariamente Scritto da wildcat

E' vero che le proteine sono composte da amminoacidi, ma nel BB l'equazione non è proteine=amminoacidi.
Comunemente un BBer per amminoacidi intende i BCAA, i cosidetti ramificati (x la loro struttura chimica), non amminoacidi in senso lato.
Questi sono 3 amminoacidi (leucina, isoleucina, valina) che possono essere deamminati e utilizzati a scopo energetico solo nel muscolo striato, ricoprendo così nell'integrazione un ruolo proenergetico e anticatabolico, di grande aiuto per mantenere alta l'intensità (e minimizzare il catabolismo) nei periodi di dieta più ristretta.
Per cui hanno un ruolo complementare all'assunzione proteica, non essenziale ma senz'altro utile (nel senso che si possno avere ottimi risultati anche senza assumere BCAA, ma se la dieta è bassa di proteine...).
Mi lascia un po' perplesso il quantitativo di MINIMO 2 g x Kg di peso... non ti sembra un po' eccessivo, soprattutto x fegato e rene?
Non è che tutto l'eccesso proteica diventi muscolo, anczi, più facilmente viene deamminato e utilizzato a scopo energetico o di accumulo.
Attualmente si parla più ragionevolmente di 1,5 - 2 g si, ma x kg di massa magra.
Poi ognuno avrà sicuramente un'opinione diversa.
Personalmente sto x sperimentare il freamine, un prodotto che usiamo in ospedale x le sacche di nutrizione parenterale: è una polvere, una miscela bilanciata di amminoacidi essenziali e non, pensavo di assumerla dopo allenamento assieme a del banale zucchero x sfruttare l'insulina e l'aumentata sensibilità muscolare x riempire il muscolo di nutrienti plastici.

Beh se comunemente un bber per aminoacidi intende bcaa e’ un bber che non vede lontano ..!

Gli aminoacidi sono 20 che combinati diversamente fra loro lasciano spazio a molteplici varianti che fanno fronte a diverse esigenze , quindi prendere in considerazione solo i ramificati a mio avviso e’ molto riduttivo !

Certo alla fine disogna vederese cio’ che il bb e’ questo che chiede allora ok ! Io personalmente mi interesso di tutto cio’ non solo per lo sport che pratico ma anche per studio ed e’ vero che lo studio ti allarga gli orizzonti infatti c’e’ un gran numero di bb che di integrazione sa solo : “proteine per fare massa, aminoacidi per recuperare e vitamine non fanno mai male”

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Hai puntualizzato anche che 2 gr di pro per kilo son troppi , ma son accettabili 2 gr per kilo di massa magra , questo mi ha fatto un po sorridere , ti chiedo : secondo te sono i 10 gr in piu’ di proteine che ti affaticano?

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In ultimis assumi costantemente tot quantità di carbo e molti amino verranno preservati a scopi piu' nobili che energetici

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Ciao e alla prox

**bboy18** · 05-03-2004, 14:07:56

max_power ritoornaaaaaaaaa

**wildcat** · 05-03-2004, 14:45:18

Hai detto quantitativo minimo, non 2 gr per chilo, ricordi?
Comunque se pesassi 100 kg con il 15% di grasso corporeo sarebbero 30 g in più, se fossi 70 al 4%... tutto è relativo, qui parliamo di linee guida, pensavo che quel minimo di 2 g alludesse a qualcosa di ben più grande.
Riguardo alla larghezza di vedute... Ti sei mai accorto di quanta ignoranza ci sia nelle palestre?
Purtroppo non ti conosco, ho semplicemente espresso concetti che per molti sono oscuri... poi ho visto il numero di post e la tua risposta, e mi rendo conto che le tue esperienze non sono senz'altro equiparabili a quella faccia oscura del bb che intendo io!!
Riguardo all'utilizzo nobile... vedi, l'organismo in un certo senso di fronte a un surplus calorico troppo elevato (come nella maggior parte delle diete affibiate da presunti preparatori che affollano i centri fitness e le palestre commerciali) non fa distinzione: circa il 20% delle proteine muscolari è il cosidetto 'pool facilmente scambiabile di amminoacidi', una riserva impiegata a scopo bisintetico od energetico quando l'introito è scarso, e poichè la sintesi proteica è un procedimento lento e il suddetto pool a rapido turnover è rapidamente saturabile, finisce tutto nel calderone della gluconeogenesi e maggiormente della lipogenesi, che purtroppo x noi è il sistema più efficace x stoccare le riserve energetiche derivanti da un eccesso.
Tutto chiarito no?
Cmq sempre a disposizione x confronti e opinioni senza'latro costruttivi!!
Stavo pensando di abbandonare l'idea di fare chirurgia generale x scienza della nutrizione.. NOOO!!!

**wildcat** · 05-03-2004, 14:48:21

Ancora: nella mia palestra è in voga fare cicli di creatina alternati a cicli di vitamina C...
Bello vero? peccato che le vitamine idrosolubili appena superano il fabbisogno VENGONO PISCIATE, si proprio così... e basta un Cebion!!
Oppure kg di Multicentrum... mai sentito parlare di tossicità da vitamina A o D?
Perchè la maggioranza di noi sono delle capre?

**lupin III** · 05-03-2004, 21:37:34

ciao cat,ti ringrazio come sempre per i tuoi puntuali interventi ma non sono affatto daccordo sulla inutilità di alte dosi di vitamina c.Questi sono solo alcuni articoli e studi vari:

A pilot study to ascertain
carotid artery status in high
potency vitamin C supplement takers

by Paul Wand, M.D. Neurologist

Atherosclerosis is an insidious disease that begins in youth, but often accelerates as humans age resulting in the manifestation of cardiovascular disease. 1,2,92,93 Vitamin C has been explored as an agent that may pro- tect against atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease. 3-14 The most significant finding came from a published study involving 11,348 adults over a 10 year period. This study showed that males taking the highest amount of vitamin C had a 45% reduction in all cause mortality, a 22% reduction in cancer incidence and a 42% reduction in heart attack risk.15
An in-depth analysis of published studies on vitamin C and cardiovascular disease, however, makes it difficult for the vitamin C user to extrapolate how the results may apply to them individually. For instance, some studies define high-dose as only 250-500 mg a day of vitamin C, 16-19 whereas the serious vitamin user often consumes between 2,000 and 12,000 mg a day of vitamin C.

To put this into perspective, we conducted a Medline search to evaluate published studies showing the effects on humans of various doses of vitamin C as it related to any parameter of cardiovascular disease risk. This database search covered the time period of January 1, 1990 to April 25, 2000. Table 1 reveals the results of this search as it relates to vitamin C dosage and cardiovascular risk factors.

<TABLE borderColor=#339900 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=8 width="70%" align=center bgColor=#ffff99 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>Table 1. Effects of Vitamin C on Cardiovascular Disease Risk

1 study showed favorable response when under 500 mg was administered 53 <HR>30 studies showed favorable response when over 500 mg was administered 54-83 <HR>3 studies showed no response when under 500 mg was administered 84-86 <HR>4 studies showed no response when over 500 mg was administered 87-90 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Based on the published literature over the last ten years, it would appear that higher potency vitamin C supplements have some effect in reducing cardiovascular disease risk, whereas potencies lower than 500 mg a day may have no effect. It is important to note that the human studies presented on Table 1 on the following page do not include the published molecular research of Linus Pauling, Matthias Rath and others who are largely responsible for convincing health conscious people that supplementation with greater than 2000 mg a day of vitamin C reduces cardiovascular disease risk. More on the research of Linus Pauling, et al will appear later in this article.

When attempting to assess the benefits in humans who take very high doses of supplements, such as those taking in excess of 2000 mg a day of vitamin C, a serious gap exists in the published literature. A significant confounding factor is that people taking in excess of 2000 mg a day of vitamin C usually take other nutrients that have been shown to reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease such as coenzyme Q10, 20-25 vitamin E, 91,176,177 vitamin B12, 27 vitamin B6, 28,29 and folic acid. 30-40 It therefore becomes difficult, using epidemiological data, to ascertain the real effects of very high dose vitamin C supplementation on human populations who are taking a wide variety of nutrients in addition to vitamin C.

Why some people take very high doses of vitamin C

An impressive body of research indicates potential health benefits when very high doses of vitamin C are taken over an extended time period. We will define every high dose from here on out as vitamin C intake in excess of 2000 mg a day.

Some of the notable doctors and scientists who have endorsed very high dose vitamin C supplementation include Linus Pauling, Abram Hoffer, Robert Cathcart, Matthias Rath, Irwin Stone, Frederick R. Klenner, Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw and host of others. These doctors and scientists have authored books and scientific papers that document the benefits of very high dose vitamin C supplementation. In response to these publications, a sub-fraction of the American public has chosen to personally consume 2000 to 12,000 mg a day of vitamin C.

A consistent theory among doctors endorsing very high dose vitamin C supplementation is that it works by specially defined mechanisms to reduce the incidence of artery disease. Linus Pauling, along with his associate Matthias Rath, MD, have published data showing that arteries harden in the absence of sufficient vitamin C. They cite research showing that when the dietary intake of vitamin C is low, collagen production is limited, and arteries tend to become thinner and weaker from wear and tear. Plaque deposits (atherosclerosis) then form to compensate for this weakness. The Pauling/Rath theory, published in both conventional and alternative medicine circles, holds that the root cause of atherosclerotic plaque deposits is a chronic vitamin deficiency. 94-98

Given the credentials of the doctors and scientists advocating very high dose vitamin C supplementation, and the widespread dissemination of their publications in the United States, a sub-fraction of the American population believes that very high dose vitamin C supplementation (along with nutrients such as vitamin E, B6, folate, coenzyme Q10, etc.) will reduce the formation of atherosclerotic plaque and the subsequent development of common forms of cardiovascular disease.

Why conventional doctors doubt the value of vitamin C

The medical profession has traditionally been biased against dietary supplements for a variety of economic and political reasons. As mentioned earlier in this article, there are published studies that show that vitamin C fails to confer a protective effect in reducing cardiovascular disease risk. While the majority of studies (31 favorable studies compared to 7 showing no response) indicate that vitamin C supplements reduce cardiovascular disease risk factors, it appears that the few studies showing no benefit carry great weight in the medical profession. Conventional physicians also tend to be unenlightened about 76 additional human studies published since 1990 showing that vitamin C confers other health benefits such as lowered risks of cancer and other diseases. 99-174

Mainstream organizations have a propensity to look at studies showing no health benefit when vitamin C is consumed in low doses, and then make a public announcement that insufficient evidence exists to recommend widespread vitamin supplementation. The news media is quick to report on studies that show that vitamin C may not protect against cardiovascular disease, without presenting the counter view that not enough vitamin C was consumed in the particular study to provide the expected benefit.

So, despite a rather intensive amount of research that has occurred over the past 10 years, we are still without a scientific consensus as to whether vitamin C is protective against cardiovascular or other diseases, ergo the continued debate over the value of vitamin C supplementation.
The latest controversy

At a meeting of the American Heart Association held on March 2, 2000, a presentation was made of an unpublished trial indicating that those who consumed high amounts of vitamin C supplements had increased carotid intima-media wall thickening over an 18-month time period. 41 The doctors who made this presentation described high amounts of vitamin C as up to 500 mg a day. This presentation contradicts previous published studies showing that vitamin C protects against carotid atherosclerosis and intima-media wall thickening. 42

In response to this unpublished American Heart Association presentation, The Life Extension Foundation asked me to oversee a pilot study of 30 people who had been taking very high doses of vitamin C (and other nutrients) for at least four years.

The objective of this study was to ascertain whether those who have consumed more than 2000 mg a day of vitamin C have a greater or lesser degree of carotid artery wall thickening and atherosclerotic plaque in relationship to their age and other risk factors.

The subjects in our test group ranged from age 45 to 81 years, with a median age of 61. Our test subjects were significantly older than the group tested by the American Heart Association.

The procedure used to evaluate the carotid arteries of these 30 subjects was a high resolution ultrasound of the carotids with doppler evaluation. Multiple sonographic scans were obtained through the area of the right and left carotid systems. This test enabled me to ascertain if there was atherosclerotic plaque present, the degree of intimamedia thickening if any, blood flow velocity and the percentage of stenosis (narrowing or blockage), if any. I routinely use this test to help determine if neurologic deficit is caused by carotid artery disease. It is not uncommon for me to detect 60% to 90% blockage in the carotid arteries of patients, along with significant increase of carotid blood flow velocity and severe intimamedia thickening. Lay readers should know that increased blood flow velocity is indicative of greater carotid artery stenosis (narrowing).

I was surprised that the doctors who made the presentation at the American Heart Association conference only tested for carotid intimamedia thickening. This is only one of four parameters that can be evaluated via carotid ultrasound testing. I believe the American Heart Association doctors should have also checked for carotid atherosclerotic plaque, stenosis and blood flow velocity, in addition to intima-media thickening. Of all parameters that can be evaluated, intima-media wall thickening is the least important factor. Atherosclerotic plaque, stenosis and blood flow velocity are far more important indicators of underlying carotid disease.

The results of The Life Extension Foundation™s four-pronged carotid ultrasound test showed that in 23 out of 30 of these very high vitamin C supplement takers, there was no evidence of carotid plaque formation, obstruction (stenosis) or intima-media thickening. Blood flow velocity through the carotids was completely normal in these 23 subjects.

In seven cases, there was some evidence of carotid pathology, but the extent of disease was insignificant with the exception of two persons who showed carotid stenosis of 30% and 40%. Based on the advanced age of these two subjects, the 30 and 40% stenosis observed was not considered abnormal and was not indicative of a clinically significant disease state.

In the seven cases showing some evidence of carotid pathology, preliminary follow up has at the time of this publication revealed elevated levels of homocysteine, LDL cholesterol and/or glucose as potential causative factors. Additional blood testing of these seven subjects will be conducted to evaluate serum iron, Creactive protein, LDL particle size, fibrinogen and other potential risk factors for carotid stenosis. When adjusting for age and other confounding factors such as high cholesterolhomocysteine, the slight to moderate carotid pathology detected in these 7 out of 30 subjects is below what would be normally expected.

Overall, this group of very high vitamin C supplement takers showed remarkably healthy carotid arteries, with 23 out of 30 having absolutely no sign of intima-media thickening, blood flow restriction, atherosclerosis or stenosis.

Our pilot study of 30 subjects differed from the American Heart Association study in the following ways

The American Heart Association tested people aged 40 to 60. We thought age 40 was too young to observe significant carotid artery disease in asymptomatic people, so we tested people beginning at age 45. We had no upper age cutoff limit, and tested many people in their 60s, 70s and one 81-year-old.

The American Heart Association only tested for carotid intimamedia thickening, while we tested for carotid atherosclerosis, stenosis and blood flow velocity, in addition to intima-media thickening. Atherosclerotic plaque, stenosis and blood flow velocity are far more important indicators of underlying disease than intima- media thickening.

The upper limit for vitamin C intake was apparently 500 mg in the American Heart Association study. Our subjects, on the other hand, consumed well over 2,000 mg a day of vitamin C along with potent doses of other nutrients purported to reduce risk of atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease.

If we had set a cutoff of 60 years of age like the American Heart Association did, we would have found that none of our test subjects would have shown clinically significant carotid artery pathology. In other words, had we used the same narrow parameters (under age 60) that were presented at the American Heart Association meeting, we would have had no carotid artery pathology to report in this group of people who take very high doses of supplements.

Since aging is a risk factor in the development of carotid artery disease, we choose to evaluate a much older group (45 to 81 years) of people consuming greater levels of vitamin C and other nutrients. By testing an older age group, we obtained a more clinically significant picture of the carotid artery status of people who have consumed very high doses of vitamin C and other nutrients for long periods of time.

Additional considerations

It is well established that excess iron accelerates atherosclerosis, and one study specifically showed that high levels of iron cause carotid atherosclerosis 43 . It is therefore possible that the people in the American Heart Association study who were taking low potency vitamin C supplements were consuming a multi-vitamin that contained a relatively high level of iron. There is also a possibility that these relatively low-potency vitamin C supplements where causing excess iron absorption from food, but not enough vitamin C to protect against iron-induced LDL cholesterol oxidation that could have contributed to the intima-media thickening observed in the American Heart Association presentation.

Previously published research shows vitamin C as either having a protective effect, or no effect in the development of carotid artery disease. The most significant positive study was published in the American Heart Association™s own journal 42 and measured the relationship between the intake of dietary and supplemental vitamin C, vitamin E and provitamin A carotenoids and average carotid artery wall thickness. In 6,318 female and 4,989 male participants 45 to 64 years old, carotid artery intima-media wall thickness was measured as an indicator of atherosclerosis at multiple sites with ultrasound testing. Among men and women over age 55 who had not recently begun a special diet, those in the high vitamin C intake group showed significantly less average carotid artery wall thickness adjusted for age, body mass index, fasting serum glucose, systolic and diastolic blood pressures, HDL and LDL cholesterol, total caloric intake, cigarette use, race and education. Vitamin C showed an 81% protective effect in women and a 65% protective effect in men. The doctors concluded by stating:

<TABLE width="75%" align=center><TBODY><TR borderColor=#cccccc><TD>"These data provide limited support for the hypothesis that dietary vitamin C and alpha- tocopherol may protect against atherosclerotic disease, especially in individuals over 55 years old."</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Carotid endarterectomy is a surgical procedure used to remove atherosclerotic plaque in the carotid artery. In a study of 45 people undergoing this procedure, the lower the plasma content in vitamin C over a 12-month period, the higher the percentage of vessel re-narrowing after endarterectomy. This study implies that even in advanced cases of carotid stenosis, supplemental vitamin C may be of benefit in preventing further occlusion. 44

Another study involved the feeding of oxidized lab chow along with vitamin C and iron to rabbits for four weeks to induce experimental atherosclerosis. These rabbits had been fed a trans-fatty acid rich diet for 36 weeks prior. Administration of coenzyme Q10 after the feeding of a trans-fatty acid-rich diet showed a decrease in coronary atherosclerosis, artery plaque size and atherosclerosis scores when compared to the placebo group. 45 This study indicates that supplemental coenzyme Q10 may be required when people take vitamin C and iron supplements.

While Linus Pauling, Matthias Rath and others make a good case that vitamin C protects against atherosclerosis, there are studies suggesting that garlic, 46 homocsyteine-lowering nutrients folate, 30-38 B6, 28 B12, 26,27 TMG (trimetheylglycine), 47-50 and calcium regulating nutrients such as vitamin K 51 provide even greater benefits. One study on people with elevated homocysteine showed that supplementation with folic acid, vitamins B12 and B6 resulted in a regression in carotid artery stenosis within one year as measured by ultrasound testing. 52

Conclusions

Our direct observation, based on carotid ultrasound testing, show that very high vitamin C supplement users have remarkably healthy carotid arteries. When adjusted for other factors such as age, elevated homocysteine, LDL cholesterol and glucose, these very high vitamin C takers as a group appear to have less carotid pathology than the general population. A review of previously published findings indicates that consuming a wide variety of very high potency dietary supplements, combined with blood screening to monitor cholesterol, homocysteine, glucose, iron and other atherogenic risk factors, confers a significant protective effect against the development of carotid artery disease.

**lupin III** · 05-03-2004, 21:38:43

**lupin III** · 05-03-2004, 21:40:49

<TABLE width="90%" border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top align=left><TD align=middle>The Body Covers:
The 43rd Interscience Conference on Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy

</TD><TD align=right><SCRIPT>var referpage = escape(window.location);var title = escape(document.title);document.write("<a href=""# onClick=Javascript:window.open(\'../../../cgi-bin/email_form.cgi?");document.write("title=" + title);document.write("&refer=" + referpage);document.write("\',\'emailform\',\'width=325,height=");if (navigator.appName == "Netscape") { document.write("450\');>"); } else { document.write("395\');>"); }</SCRIPT>
<SCRIPT language=JavaScript>function WinOpen() {open("/glossary.html","window2","'toolbar=0,location=0,directories=0,status=0,menubar=0,scrollbars=1,resiza ble=1,width=360,height=350,left=560%0,top=5");}</SCRIPT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE width="70%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>

High Dose of Vitamin C Significantly Reduces Indinavir Levels in Pilot Study</B>

Coverage provided by Myles Helfand

Background

Disturbingly few studies to date have focused on the potential impact of vitamins, minerals, herbal medicines and other supplements on the blood plasma levels of HIV antiretrovirals, particularly protease inhibitors. There are any number of possible explanations for this dearth in research: a lack of available funding, the U.S. government's failure to regulate such substances, Western medicine's lack of faith in complementary therapies or the limited respect afforded to research published in this area.

Clearly, however, such research is essential, primarily because a massive number of HIV-positive patients in the Western world use complementary and alternative medicine (CAM). A recent survey in Ontario, Canada, for instance, found that 89 percent of HIV-positive patients used vitamins, minerals, supplements or other forms of CAM.<SUP>1</SUP> A larger study conducted in the U.S. by the University of California-Los Angeles found that more than half of HIV-positive Americans surveyed used some form of CAM -- and that a quarter of those individuals were using a substance that could interfere with antiretroviral therapy.<SUP>2</SUP> Knowledge of how these substances interact with HIV medications is pivotal to ensure the optimal efficacy and safety of the antiretrovirals that patients are prescribed.

In recent years, a small number of reliable studies have been conducted on the effects of some complementary medicines on HIV antiretrovirals. Most of these studies have focused on the interactions between CAMs and protease inhibitors; the most notable was the finding that St. John's wort can dramatically reduce plasma levels of indinavir (IDV, Crixivan),<SUP>3</SUP> a revelation that has since been expanded to include a potentially massive number of other medications,<SUP>4</SUP> including all protease inhibitors. Other studies have highlighted the impact of St. John's wort on NNRTIs, specifically nevirapine (NVP, Viramune),<SUP>5</SUP> and of garlic supplements on the protease inhibitor saquinavir (SQV, Fortovase, Invirase),<SUP>6</SUP> among others. The reason for many of these interactions appears to be the substances' effect on P450 enzymes, which metabolize protease inhibitors and NNRTIs. Much has yet to be learned about the precise mechanism of these interactions, though, and due to a lack of research, the vast majority of potential CAM/antiretroviral interactions are unknown.

Study Findings

This pilot study (Poster A-1610, "Effect of High-Dose Vitamin C on the Steady-State Pharmacokinetics of the Protease Inhibitor Indinavir in Healthy Volunteers"<SUP>7</SUP>) by Douglas Slain, Pharm.D., and colleagues at West Virginia University marks the first attempt to study potential interactions between antiretrovirals and vitamin C -- widely held to be one of the most heavily used supplements in the developed world, particularly by immunocompromised people. Though the patient sample involved in this study was quite small and was not conducted on HIV-positive patients, its findings raise alarms about vitamin C's impact on protease inhibitor concentrations -- and point to just how important it is that healthcare practitioners be well aware of any vitamins, minerals or supplements their HIV-positive patients are taking.

Dr. Slain's study involved seven healthy, HIV-negative volunteers (six of whom were male) between 18 and 55 years of age. Each was given four 800-mg doses of indinavir eight hours apart, so the drug's steady-state pharmacokinetic parameters could be determined before vitamin C was added to the equation. After a seven-day "wash-out" period, the volunteers were given a seven-day daily regimen of 1,000 mg vitamin C -- a concentration that is about 12 times the U.S. recommended daily allowance, but well within the dosing range of many HIV-positive patients in the U.S. On the sixth day after they began taking the vitamin C, the subjects were once again administered four 800-mg doses of indinavir, each eight hours apart, with the vitamin C and indinavir doses always separated by at least three hours. Blood plasma was taken from the subjects at several points during the original administration of indinavir, and again after the final four indinavir doses were given. Throughout the course of the study, the volunteers were kept on a diet in which vitamin C content was controlled.

Testing of the plasma samples revealed striking results: The additional vitamin C resulted in a 20 percent mean reduction in peak blood levels of indinavir, or Cmax (p=0.04), and a 14 percent mean reduction in area under the curve (p<0.05). Vitamin C also caused a 32 percent mean reduction in minimum blood levels (Cmin) of indinavir, as well as changes in indinavir clearance, though these findings were not statistically significant. Five of the seven study subjects experienced significant reductions in indinavir levels. Intriguingly, one of the two who did not exhibit a reduction was the only female volunteer. Dr. Slain emphasized, however, that the limited size and scope of the study preclude any assumptions about the significance of this.

Discussion

Dr. Slain's findings are the first to document an interaction between vitamin C and protease inhibitors in humans. It potentially groups the substance with St. John's wort, garlic supplements and other substances that impact protease inhibitor levels by affecting the metabolism of cytochrome P450 CYP3A4 isoenzymes, a subset of the P450 enzyme family that is primarily responsible for the metabolism of protease inhibitors.

Obviously, the study is limited by its minute sample size. Dr. Slain emphasized that no broad-reaching conclusions can yet be drawn from these findings, and there is not yet sufficient cause for physicians or patients to drastically alter their use of either vitamin C or indinavir -- although he did make a case for the use of therapeutic drug monitoring in this context. There also remains a yawning research gap in the area of CAM/antiretroviral interactions; it is up to those who fund and publish HIV-related research to realize it -- and do something about it.

Finally, it is becoming increasingly clear just how important it is for HIV-positive persons to understand that complementary therapies such as vitamins can't simply be popped like candy and forgotten about. As this study suggests -- and earlier studies on St. John's wort and garlic supplements have proven -- sometimes these therapies can help cause an HIV treatment regimen to fail. That's an outcome nobody wants to see, and one that can be prevented.

Read the poster of the abstract covered in this article.

References

Furler M., Einarson T., Walmsley S. et al. Use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine by HIV-Infected Outpatients in Ontario, Canada. AIDS Patient Care and STDs. 2003; 17(4):155-168.
Hsiao A., Wong M., Kanouse D. et al. Complementary and Alternative Medicine Use and Substitution for Conventional Therapy by HIV-Infected Patients. Journal of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndromes. 2003; 33(2):157-165.
Piscitelli S., Burstein A., Chaitt D. et al. Indinavir Concentrations and St John's Wort. Lancet. 2000 Feb 12; 355(9203):547-548.
Markowitz J.S., Donovan J.L., DeVane C.L. et al. Effect of St John's Wort on Drug Metabolism by Induction of Cytochrome P450 3A4 Enzyme. Journal of the American Medical Association. 2003; 290:1500-1504.
de Maat M. M. R., Hoetelmans R. M. W., Mathôt R. A. A. et al. Drug Interaction Between St John's Wort and Nevirapine. AIDS. 2001; 15(3):420-421.
Piscitelli S. C., Burstein A. H., Welden N. et al. Garlic Supplements Decrease Saquinavir Plasma Concentrations. Presented at: 8th Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections; February 4-8, 2001; Chicago, Ill. Abstract 743.
Slain, D., Amsden, J. R., Khakoo, R.A. et al. Effect of High-Dose Vitamin C on the Steady-State Pharmacokinetics of the Protease Inhibitor Indinavir in Healthy Volunteers. Presented at: 43rd Interscience Conference on Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy; Sept. 14-17, 2003; Chicago, Ill. Abstract A-1610.

September 16, 2003

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**lupin III** · 05-03-2004, 21:54:26

Ci sono anche tante altre cosette interessanti che non ho il tempo di postare.So anche che ci sono studi di segno contrario,ma volevo soltanto dimostrare che non è affatto palese l'inutilità di alte dosi di vitamina c.

**lupin III** · 06-03-2004, 01:41:24

Altra roba:

Linus Pauling investigates vitamin C

Linus Pauling first became interested in vitamin C in the 1960’s when he met Irwin Stone, a biochemist who had been investigating the vitamin’s properties since the 1930’s. Stone believed that it had distinctive healing qualities, and he was convinced of vitamin C’s efficacy when he and his wife had an accident involving a head on collision with a drunk driver. They used large doses of vitamin C as an aid in their recovery, and as a result they healed with remarkable speed (Hager, 1995).

Stone began to research certain animal’s abilities to synthesize their own vitamin C. He realized that humans, chimpanzees, fruit bats and guinea pigs were the only mammals that didn’t posses an enzyme necessary for vitamin C synthesis. Therefore, they had to obtain it from their diet. He concluded that the loss of this ability in humans likely occurred as the result of a mutational deviation in primates, the human predecessor, 25 million years ago (Zuckerkandl and Pauling, 1962).

In 1448, Portuguese sailors on long sea voyages were notably inflicted with an initial swelling of their feet, hands and gums, which would later spread to the rest of their bodies until they eventually died. They realized that when they ate oranges and lemons their health was restored. Historical accounts suggest that sailors in the fourteenth century were aware of the medicinal properties of oranges and lemons. In 1589, British sailors would call this illness “skurvie” or scurvy. It was not until 1911, that scurvy was recognized as a vitamin deficiency (Carpenter, 1986).

Overall, the symptoms of scurvy include a feeling of weakness, restlessness, rapid exhaustion and sallow skin. A patient will also experience muscle pain, depression and hemorrhaging of muscles and tissues. In later stages a patient will exhibit extreme exhaustion, kidney and pulmonary problems, as well as diarrhea, which consequently leads to death (Pauling, 1976).

International standards were established in the 1930’s regarding a recommended requirement for vitamin C. The league of the United Nations (presently the United Nations) concluded that 30 milligrams was adequate in order to prevent scurvy. Stone didn’t believe that a minimal dosage was adequate for optimal health, as he proposed that the inability of humans to synthesize vitamin C was actually a genetic disease and not the result of a simple vitamin deficiency. Moreover, he suggested that studies on rats showed that humans needed between 1.4 grams and 4 grams of vitamin C per day to coincide with the amounts of vitamin C that rats naturally synthesized daily (Hager, 1995).

At first, Pauling was skeptical of Stones ideas, but Stone’s theory regarding genetic mutations and genetic deficiencies intrigued him. Pauling knew that George Beadle’s research revealed that genetic mutations occurred in mold spores, which resulted in the mutated spore’s altered need for new nutrients such as amino acids and vitamins (Hager, 1995).

Pauling decided to follow Stone’s advice and quietly took 3 grams of vitamin C daily for 3 years. He immediately noted that as he took the vitamin his sense of wellness improved and he wasn’t experiencing the dreaded cold that plagued him for 40 years (Hager, 1995). He concluded that the intake of vitamin C could enhance, as well as prolong life expectancy, and therefore went forth to advocate its use for the remaining 30 years of his life.

Pauling’s scientific support for vitamin C

For many years, Pauling studied the physiological activity of molecular substances in the body. As his research progressed he began to study the use of vitamins as a therapy in addressing mental disorders such as schizophrenia. His personal experience with vitamin C led him to believe that vitamin C, also known as ascorbic acid, is a food that could effectively treat a common cold or similar disorders. In contrast, he believed that “a treatment using drugs may help to ease symptoms of a cold, but does not effect the duration of the cold” (Pauling, 1976).

Ascorbic acid is a nontoxic substance that is vital for human existence. A human being will die with in a few months if ascorbic acid is eliminated from the diet. In 1974, the National Research Council recommended 35 mg for infants, 40 mg for children and 45 mg for adults (60 for pregnant women and 80 mg for lactating women). 10 mg of ascorbic acid is needed to prevent scurvy, but Pauling believed that people’s individual needs varied, and though he wasn’t sure what the optimal requirement was he thought that people needed between 250 mg to 10 g per day (Pauling, 1976).

Many foods such as oranges, limes, peppers, spinach, cucumbers, asparagus, lettuce and cranberries contain varying amounts of ascorbic acid. Cooked foods lose about half of the ascorbic acid compared to raw foods. Although a decent diet may provide about 100 mg of ascorbic acid, studies conducted in the 1970’s showed that many people did not obtain this amount. Furthermore, one- half of the people ingested less than 57.9 mg and one-third of the people did not obtain the recommended daily allowance (RDA) of 45 mg per day for adults (Pauling, 1976).

Pauling recommended that L-Ascorbic acid be used to supplement the diet. It is water soluble and can be found as a white crystalline powder. L-Ascorbic acid is a synthetic form of vitamin C that is identical to natural vitamin C found in plants. It’s manufactured by using dextrose, which exist in honey and other plants, but it is also known as glucose, grape sugar, honey sugar, corn sugar or starch sugar. Its chemical formula is C<SUB>6</SUB>H<SUB>12</SUB>O<SUB>6</SUB> and it is converted to C<SUB>6</SUB>H<SUB>8</SUB>O<SUB>6</SUB> by an oxidation reaction, which remove 4 hydrogen atoms to form water. Animals that make their own ascorbic acid can synthesize ascorbic acid from dextrose in either the liver or the kidney (Pauling, 1976).

Vitamin C can be taken orally as ascorbic acid, but its salts; sodium ascorbate and calcium ascorbate can only be injected. Ascorbic acid is considered a weak acid, a little stronger than acetic acid, which is found in vinegar, yet somewhat weaker than citric acid (oranges, lemons), lactic acid (milk, sauerkraut) and tartaric acid (grapes). Ascorbic acid thoroughly dissociates into hydrogen ions, which combine with basic groups of proteins or carbonate ion. The ascorbate ion is responsible for the synthesis of collagen and other physiological processes. The salts of ascorbic acid, sodium ascorbate and calcium ascorbate also dissociates to produce ascorbate ions, and they function exactly as ascorbic acid does. The acid in ascorbic acid by injection damages veins or tissues; therefore sodium ascorbate and calcium ascorbate is used by injection (Pauling, 1976).

Although ascorbic acid’s function in the body is not fully understood, it does act as a strong reducing agent, otherwise known as a compound that donates its electrons or hydrogen atoms. In this case ascorbic acid donates its hydrogen atoms, then it is converted into dehydroascorbic acid (C<SUB>6</SUB>H<SUB>8</SUB>O<SUB>6</SUB> ) in which dehydroascorbic acid accepts the ascorbic acid’s hydrogen atoms. Dehydroascorbic acid is considered the oxidizing agent. This process is reversible and the reducing of ascorbic acid, as well as the oxidation of dehydroascorbic acid is thought to account for some of the physiological qualities of vitamin C (Pauling, 1976).

Studies have shown that animals, such as guinea pigs and monkeys that require ascorbic acid will exhibit symptoms of scurvy if they do not acquire a sufficient amount through their diet. These symptoms include, intramuscular and subcutaneous hemorrhages, tender joints, loss of appetite, anemia, sluggishness, as well as a weakening of connective tissue such as skin, tendons and walls of blood vessels. The studies also showed that low intakes of ascorbic acid resulted in the slow healing of wounds and burns, as ascorbic acid is essential for maintaining the strength of connective tissue which is responsible for rapid healing and scar formation (Pauling, 1976).

A number of studies revealed the need for larger doses of ascorbic acid in human beings, as well as animals. Additional doses of vitamin C could increase an animal’s resistance to exposure of a cold. Also, if humans were subjected to stressful situations involving surgeries, burns or wounds, it was found that levels of vitamin C in the blood decreased, suggesting the body’s need for ascorbic acid. In 1964, Dr. James Greenwood, Jr., clinical professor of neurosurgery in Baylor University College of Medicine concluded that increasing the amount of vitamin C protected the stability of the intervertebral disc, and therefore impeded back trouble. Greenwood found that patients using 1000 mg per day experienced a decrease in pain and soreness due to work or vigorous exercise, but if patients stopped taking the vitamin their ailments would return. His observations in 500 cases led him to state with almost certainty that many patients with early disc lesions could avoid surgery by ingesting large quantities of ascorbic acid (Pauling, 1976).

Collagen is a fibrous protein critically responsible for the maintenance of connective tissue, a substance that holds various structures in the body together. Tendons, cartilage, bones, arteries and veins are comprised of connective tissue, whereas collagen acts to strengthen and protect these tissues. Ascorbic acid is required for the synthesis of collagen in the bodies of human beings and animals (Pauling, 1976).

The intercellular glue of connective tissue is composed of a mucopolysaccharide, called hyaluronic acid in which tiny fibrils of collagen are found. If vitamin C intake is low, the integrity of connective tissue is compromised; in other words collagen fibrils can not be synthesized with out adequate amounts of vitamin C (Pauling, 1976).

Vitamin C and the common cold

Pauling believed that the presence of vitamin C in the intercellular glue obstructs virus particles from moving through cells and tissues. He also hypothesized that it was involved in interferon activity. Interferons are proteins that are manufactured by most cells, which interfere with virus production and infection (Pauling, 1976).

The common cold is the result of an infection by a virus, which leads to an inflammation of the upper respiratory tract. The common cold can last from three to ten days and on the average can affect a person three times per year (Pauling, 1976).

Many studies regarding the effect of vitamin C on the common cold have been conducted since the late 1930’s. In 1938, Dr. Roger Korbash of St. Elisabeth Hospital, Oberhausen, Germany published that vitamin C was used in effectively treating several diseases. He used vitamin C to treat gastritis and ulcers. He then tried vitamin C in treating rhinitis, or inflammation of the mucus membranes of the nose. He found that the therapy was valuable and decided to try 250 or 500-mg injections of vitamin C on a person suffering from a cold. He concluded that the vitamin C therapy always led to an immediate disappearance of the cold symptoms, but sometimes another injection may be needed the following day. Overall, Korbash believed that vitamin C could be safely administered in large doses. He also stated that vitamin C was far superior to cold medicines (Pauling, 1976).

Another trial in Germany (Ertel, 1941) apportioned 357 million daily doses of vitamin C among 3.7 million pregnant women, nursing mothers, infants and children. The study concluded that the participants experienced better health than the corresponding control population. Furthermore, statistical data indicated that school children with illnesses relating to respiratory infections decreased by 20 % over the previous year (Pauling, 1976).

Controlled studies were also carried out in the 1970’s. A team in Toronto (Anderson et al., 1975) used 488 subjects who completed a fifteen-week test. 150 subjects received a weekly 500-mg vitamin C tablet (two-thirds sodium ascorbate and one third calcium ascorbate), 152 received a weekly 500-mg timed release capsule of ascorbic acid, and 145 received a placebo tablet with the same appearance and taste of ascorbic acid. The subjects were instructed that if symptoms of illness should appear they should take an additional tablet or capsule, and if the symptoms continued they should repeat the dose twice at four-hour intervals on the first day and once every twelve hours for up to 4 more days (Pauling, 1976).

The team concluded that the ascorbic groups reported on an average of 62 to 98 percent fewer symptoms than the placebo group. The symptoms included fever, chills, achy heavy limbs, runny nose, sore throat, chest soreness or tightness, as well as a lack of ambition and depression. Also the two vitamin group’s averages of the symptoms were very close, 75 and 78 percent respectively. The results showed that “subjects in both vitamin groups experienced less severe illness than subjects in the placebo group, with approximately 25 percent fewer days spent indoors because of illness.” Finally, the team suggested that large doses of ascorbic acid produce “ a generalized nonspecific improvement in the host’s ability to cope with infection (or possibly any type of stress?).” They also firmly stated that they had little doubt that ingesting additional vitamin C led to a reduction in “winter illness” (Pauling, 1976).

Vitamin C, influenza and other viral diseases

Historically, when an epidemic of a contagious disease advanced through an undernourished population, an epidemic of scurvy would sometimes follow. Pauling believed that it was evident that there is a direct correlation between ascorbic acid and many diseases, including viral diseases, if not all diseases (Pauling, 1976). Research has shown that ascorbic acid inactivates the herpes virus, vaccina virus, hepatitis virus, bacterial viruses and other viruses (Stone, 1972, for references). A Japanese microbiologist, Akira Murata and his collaborators concluded that ascorbic acid could inactivate many bacterial viruses (viruses that attack bacteria). They found that the rate of inactivation varied. A concentration as small as 3 mg per deciliter in the blood was effective. Likewise, they discovered that intravenous injections of 20 g of sodium ascorbate in adult human beings inactivated 99 percent of many types of viruses with in 20 minutes (Murata, Kitagawa, and Saruno, 1971).

Murata and his coworkers also observed that the inactivation of the virus occurs only if free oxygen and ascorbic acid are both present. Moreover, they discovered that scavengers of free radicals (a highly reactive molecule with an odd number of electrons) block the inactivation. Copper ions in small concentrations, which naturally reside in the blood, can increase the rate of inactivation as well. These two contributing factors indicate that ascorbic acid reduces the oxygen molecules to a free radical, which in turn destroys the nucleic acid of the virus (Pauling, 1976).

High doses of vitamin C has also been reported to be effective in preventing poliomyelitis, hepatitis and other viral diseases. Dr. Fred R. Klenner, a physician in North Carolina first investigated treating polio with ascorbic acid. He successfully treated viral hepatitis with 400 to 600 mg injections per kilogram body weight (28 g to 42 g for a 150-pound person) and repeated this dose every eight to 12 hours (Klenner, 1949, 1951). He also treated other viral diseases with twice this dosage (Klenner, 1971, 1974).

A viral disease called hepatitis or serum hepatitis can be transferred through a blood transfusion as a result of a surgical procedure. Dr. F. Morishige, was a chief surgeon in Fukuoka General Hospital, Fukuoka, Japan. He had studied the use of vitamin C in relation to wound healing; thus he decided to investigate ascorbic acid’s effect on hepatitis. Dr. Morishige conducted a trial with some of his surgical patients by giving a number of his patients large doses of vitamin C, but others received no vitamin C or very little of the vitamin. 11 of the 150 patients (7 percent) who received less than 1.5 g per day of vitamin C developed serum hepatitis (Pauling, 1976). However, out of 1095 patients who received 2 g per day or more, not one patient developed the virus (Murata, 1975). Dr. Morishige continued to have his patients take 10 g of vitamin C per day while they stayed in the hospital, as well as 6 g per day thereafter. He also successfully used ascorbic acid in treating other viral diseases including, measles, mumps, viral pneumonia, viral orchitis, herpes zoster (chicken pox, shingles), herpes simplex (canker sores), encephalomyelitis, and viral meningitis (Murata, 1975).

Pauling noted that as of 1976, a significant body of evidence had shown that vitamin C was effective in controlling viral diseases, yet no thorough studies had been conducted regarding the use of vitamin C in treating influenza. Nevertheless, he was confident that vitamin C would provide the same defense against influenza as it had for the common cold (Pauling, 1976).

Klenner successfully treated severe cases of influenza with doses as large as 24 g every 12 hours (Klenner, 1949, 1971). It was also reported that using a few grams per day in treating influenza produced significant results (Albanese, 1947 & Magne, 1963). Moreover, smaller doses such as 300 mg were found to be effective in reducing the duration of the illness by 25 percent (Kimbarowksi and Mokrow, 1967).

Investigators have also reported that vitamin C had been used in treating bacterial infections. A study in 1937 showed that an ascorbate concentration of 1 mg per deciliter inhibits the growth of tuberculosis bacterium (Boissevin, Spillane 1937). Likewise, ascorbate has been effective in treating other bacteria and their toxins. The bacteria that cause typhoid fever include diphtheria, tetanus and staphylococcus infections, and their toxins include diphtheria, tetanus, staphylococcus and dysentery and (references are given by Stone, 1972). Bacteria may be inactivated in the same manner ascorbate facilitates inactivation in the virus; free radicals are created by an interaction between ascorbate and oxygen, which is catalyzed by copper ions, and as a result the free radicals attack the bacteria (Pauling, 1976).

Although ascorbic acid has been shown to inactivate bacteria and viruses, in Pauling’s opinion vitamin C serves to protect the entire body (Pauling, 1976). For example, it was discovered that phagocytosis, a process in which white blood cells (leukocytes) ingest and eradicate bacterial cells must contain a small amount of ascorbate (Cottingham and Mills, 1943). A study in 1973 showed that healthy persons on a typical Scottish diet had a little over the amount needed of ascorbate required for leukocyte activity. When they encountered a cold the amount of ascorbate dropped to one-half the total on the first day, and stayed low for several days afterwards. Ingesting 250 mg of ascorbic acid per day was not adequate in supporting phagocytosis activity, but taking 1 g per day with an additional 6 g per day at first notice of a cold resulted in immunity protection (Hume & Weyers, 1973).

The results of this study convinced Pauling that at least 250 mg of ascorbic acid per day should be taken by most people in order to maintain their health. Also, he believed that if most people took between 250 to 10 g per day they could expect to reduce the chance of incurring a common cold or influenza. In addition he proposed that if a viral infection is contracted, secondary bacterial infections could be inhibited (Pauling, 1976).

Vitamin C and other diseases

The evidence regarding the ability of ascorbate acid to inactivate viruses and bacteria clearly indicates its value in staving off bacterial and viral infections. Pauling believed that the attributes of ascorbic acid could be applied to warding off other diseases as well. He concluded that vitamin C not only inactivated bacteria and viruses, but it also functioned naturally as an internal defense mechanism (Pauling, 1976).

Cardiovascular disease, a disease of the heart and blood vessels is related to environmental and dietary factors. Smoking, a high intake of saturated fats, and high cholesterol levels can all contribute to heart disease. Vitamin C is an antioxidant that can counteract saturated fats that are converted by oxidation into dangerous peroxides. Also, human beings naturally produce 700 mg of cholesterol in the body daily, but higher concentrations of cholesterol in the blood may lead to cardiovascular complications (Pauling, 1976). Research has found that an increased intake of vitamin C reduces the concentration of cholesterol in the blood (Ginter, 1970, 1973, 1975; Spittle, 1971).

The study examined twenty-four subjects with ages ranging from forty to seventy-five years that took 1 g of ascorbic acid daily for 6 months. The subjects had moderately high cholesterol levels, averaging 253 mg per deciliter. Six months of daily intake of 1 g of ascorbic acid reduced their cholesterol levels to 210 mg per deciliters on average. Control subjects who hadn’t received any ascorbic acid showed a slight increase of 12 mg per deciliter (Pauling, 1976).

Overall, Pauling compared the cholesterol intake of one egg per day, which produces on average 8 mg of cholesterol per deciliter in the blood. He concluded from the study that an intake of 1 g per day of ascorbic acid could reduce cholesterol levels by 43 mg per deciliter, which comparably is equivalent to eliminating 5 eggs per day from the diet (Pauling, 1976).

Ascorbic Acid is necessary for collagen synthesis in the body, and sufficient wound healing depends on adequate amounts of the vitamin. Pauling suggested that persons undergoing surgery should receive increased doses of ascorbic acid (Pauling, 1976). One study revealed that a patient with a bilateral hernia only had a plasma concentration of 0.9 mg per liter. The patient was administered 100 mg of ascorbic acid per day after the herniorrhaphy on one side, and was given 1,100 mg following a second operation on another side. The skin and fascia wounds from the first operation did not heal well, yet the wounds from the second operation healed properly (Bartlet, Jones & Ryan, 1942).

A number of reports indicating the efficacy of vitamin C on wound healing after surgery have been cited by Stone (1972). Likewise many studies have shown that large doses of ascorbic acid resulted in accelerating wound healing. Some surgeons have suggested that their patients take additional vitamin C before a surgery, and then administered 5 g or more to each liter of intravenous fluid prior to performing the surgery. Other physicians have observed that increased doses of vitamin C decreased postsurgical pain, reduced the time needed for regaining normal bodily functions, expedited rapid wound healing, and decreased the overall length of time spent in the hospital (Pauling, 1976).

**lupin III** · 06-03-2004, 01:44:46

November 28, 2003

Linus Pauling: l'ultima intervista del doppio premio nobel per la pace e la chimica

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=black colSpan=3></TD></TR><TR><TD class=black></TD><TD class=black>Liberta' di cura
</TD><TD class=black></TD></TR><TR><TD class=black colSpan=3></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=black colSpan=3></TD></TR><TR><TD class=black></TD><TD class=black>Medicine Naturali e Alternative
</TD><TD class=black></TD></TR><TR><TD class=black colSpan=3></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=black colSpan=3></TD></TR><TR><TD class=black></TD><TD class=black>Personaggi e Tecnologie
</TD><TD class=black></TD></TR><TR><TD class=black colSpan=3></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Linus Pauling, Ph.D.: The Last Interview
by Peter Barry Chowka
interview Â©1996 by peter barry chowka. all rights reserved.

(Tradotta in italiano per La Leva di Archimede)

Nel 1979 quando la rispettata rivista inglese New scientist incluse Linus Pauling nella sua lista dei 20 piu' importanti scienziati di tutti i tempi, non fu' altro che uno dei tanti traguardi di Pauling che includono due premi nobel non condivisi con altri e alcuni sorprendentemente originali contributi alla biologia, chimica e fisica.

Linus Pauling and Ewan Cameron in Pauling's office
at the Linus Pauling Institute 1989
photo Â© 1989, 1998 by peter barry chowka

Al tempo della sua scomparsa all'eta' di 93 anni (Agosto 1994), Pauling probabilmente era conosciuto per i suoi piu' recenti lavori nel campo della scienza della nutrizione e della vitamia C. Grazie ai suoi bestsellers sulla vitamia C, raffreddori comuni e cancro, le frequenti apparizioni televisive, il numero di studi pubblicati e presentazioni scientifiche sulla nutrizione curativa battezzata da lui con il nome di "medicina ortomolecolare", Linus Pauling fu l'unico reppresentante "ufficiale" per l'emergente scienza della nutrizione e della salute.

Secondo Pauling, la sua alta militanza nelle controversie politiche durante gli anni '50 e '60 (inclusa l'organizzazione di una vittoriosa campagna internazionale per bandire i test della armi nucleari per la quale gli fu' assegnato il nobel nel 1962), lo prepararono al difficile dibattito degli anni '70 e '80 quando di fatto divento' il leader della medicina nutrizionale in un periodo in cui la medicina ufficiale denigrava questo tipo di interessi. Durante l'ultimo ventennio della sua vita, Pauling focalizzo' il suo interesse sulle basi scientifiche della nutrizione e la sua difesa incondizionata per le megadosi vitaminiche lo pose al centro di questa controversia.

Anche dopo la sua morte la controversia continuo'. Il giornalista Lee Dembart, rivisito' due nuove biografie di Pauling, definendo l'interesse dello scienziato per la vitamina C "imbarazzante" e "eccentrico". La maggior parte degli americani, ad ogni modo, ricordano l'eredita' di Pauling in maniera molto differente: un combattente umanitario che aiuto' il campo della scienza nutrizionale ad avanzare e anche per aver portato alla conoscienza di molti che ne hanno benificiato - l'importanza della vitamina C.

Mentre la fama scientifica di Pauling e' certamente meritata, rimasi profondamente colpito, durante le numerose volte che ho potuto intervistarlo, dalla sua profonda accessibilita', inesauribile energia, dal suo aspetto positivo e il buon umore.

Il 9 aprile del 1994, quattro mesi prima che Linus Pauling mori', lo intervistai telefonicamente per conto di una radio privata. Anche se malato e confinato nella sua casa sulla costa pacifica vicino Big Sur (California), Pauling nell'occasione della diretta radiofonica e fu il solito articolato, ottimistico e avvincente uomo che avevo sempre conosciuto. Era la sua ultima intervista.

Peter Barry Chowka
febbraio del 1996

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PETER BARRY CHOWKA: Dr. Pauling, potrebbe sintetizzare il ruolo che la vitamina C ha nella salute dell'uomo e la sua importanza nella salute di tutta la nazione?

LINUS PAULING: La vitamina C - acido ascorbico, sodio ascorbato o calcio ascorbato - e' coinvolta in un gran numero di reazioni biochimiche nel corpo umano. Due delle sue maggiori interazioni sono il potenziamento del sistema immunitario e la sintesi del collagene, una sostanza molto importante che tiene unito il corpo umano. Il collagene rinforza i vasi sanguigni, la pelle, i muscoli e le ossa. L'uomo non puo' creare collagene senza la vitamina C.

Quello che mi impressiono' 20 anni fa' fu quando Irwine Stone (Ph.D.), indico' che la maggior parte degli animali, escluso l'uomo e le scimmie, producevano vitamina C (2). Non fanno affidamento al cibo o alle pasticche di vitamine, gli animali producono vitamina C nel fegato proporzionata al loro peso corporeo. Per un uomo adulto le proporzioni dovrebbero essere una media di 10-12 gr (12.000 mg) al giorno. Questo valore e' 200 volte superiore all'RDA (Raccomended Dietary Allowance - Dosaggio giornaliero raccomandato) - 200 volte rispetto a quello che la gente assume normalmente dalla sua dieta.

Questo e' il motivo per il quale dovremmo prendere 200 volte il dosaggio di vitamina C che la FNB (Food and Nutrition Board) ci raccomanda. Il dosaggio di 60 mg stabilito dagli RDA e' troppo lontano e sottolinea l'importante necessita' di assumere integratori di Vitamina C.

CHOWKA: Durante gli ultimi 20 anni lei ha studiato i pazienti malati di cancro che sono stati trattati con alti dosaggi di vitamina C. Recentemente ha pubblicato diversi studi insieme con Abram Hoffer (M.D., Ph.D.) riguardante il trattamento del cancro con la vitamina C (3,4). I risultati sembrano essere molto promettenti.

PAULING: Oh, si! Mi sono interessato della vitamina C e cancro nel 1971 e ho cominciato a lavorare con Ewan Cameron (M.B., Ch.B.) chirurgo primario dell'ospedale Vale of Leven in Scozia. Cameron dava 10 gr di vitamina C al giorno a malati con cancro terminale non piu' trattabile (5). Questi pazienti furono poi comparati da Cameron e me con pazienti con lo stesso tipo di cancro alla stessa fase terminale che erano trattati nello stesso ospedale ma da altri medici -- medici che non usavano la vitamina C e che utilizzavano i trattamenti convenzionali.

I malati terminali curati da Cameron vissero molto piu' a lungo paragonandoli a quelli che non assumevano 10 gr di vitamina C al giorno. Gli altri pazienti vissero una media di 6 mesi dopo che furono diagnosticati come terminali, mentre i pazienti di Cameron vissero una media di 6 anni.

Recentemente ho collaborato con Hoffer, un fisico che vive a Victoria (British Columbia, Canada).
Hoffer tratto' 300 pazienti malati di cancro (6) e raccomando' a tutti loro essenzialmente lo stesso trattamento di Cameron. Ma circa un quarto o un terzo dei pazienti non seguirono il trattamento per una ragione o per un'altra: il medico di famiglia potrebbe aver detto loro che alte dosi di vitamina C li avrebbe uccisi o i pazienti potrebbero aver avuto dei problemi di stomaco e non hanno voluto continuare a prendere le vitamine.

I pazienti malati terminali di cancro che non seguirono il regime di Hoffer ebbero un tempo di sopravvivenza di circa 6 mesi. Quelli che seguirono la terapia di Hoffer ottennero risultati ancora migliori di quelli di Cameron. In media sopravvissero circa 12 anni dopo che furono diagniosticati come malati terminali non trattabili.

La terapia di Hoffer includeva 12 gr di vitamina C al giorno, circa la stessa quantita' di Cameron, ma includeva anche quantita' significative di altri nutrienti: 800 U.I. di vitamina E, 1000 o 2000 mg di niacina, grosse quantita' di altre vitamine B e la vitamina A sotto forma di betacarotene. Apperentemente le altre vitamine interagiscono con la vitamina C e danno una difesa ancora maggiore contro il cancro.

Per molto tempo Cameron e io sostenevamo che ogni paziente affetto da cancro, cominciando il prima possibile nel corso della malattia, dovrebbe prendere 10 gr di vitamina C in aggiunta alle appropriate terapie convenzionali. Adesso, insieme con Hoffer, sostengo che ogni paziente malato di cancro, cominciando il prima possibile nel corso della malattia, dovrebbe prendere 10-12 e piu' gr di vitamina C, 800 U.I. di vitamina E, alti dosaggi di altre vitamine e 200 mcg di selenio al giorno. Io penso che la terapia di Hoffer e' la terapia che i malati di cancro dovrebbero seguire - sempre in aggiunta ad un'appropriata terapia convenzionale, dove "appropriata" significa una terapia convenzionale che abbia mostrato il suo valore per pazienti con lo stesso tipo di cancro.

CHOWKA: Lei vede progressi nella guerra al cancro?

PAULING: Si, penso di si. Ma sara' grazie alle vitamine e non con i farmaci. Sicuramente.

CHOWKA: Cosi' lei vede progressi nel potenziale delle vitamine e degli antiossidanti e non molti nel trattamento di tipo convenzionale che abbiamo visto fino a questo punto?

PAULING: Di certo non cercando farmaci e trattamenti miracolosi, no. Sento forte che la vitamina C ed altre sostanze ortomolecolari, come la lisina, provvederanno a controllare in maniera efficace le malattie cardiovascolari molto di piu' di quanto sara' possibile sul cancro. Sono molto positivo nella soluzione dei problemi cardiocircolatori.

CHOWKA: Lei ha recentemente pubblicato diversi studi sulla nutrizione e i problemi cardiocircolatori (7-8).

**lupin III** · 06-03-2004, 01:46:11

PAULING: Gli studi contengono un argomento molto semplice. Ho avuto molti problemi nel capire perche' le persone che si sono occupate dei problemi cardiocircolatori non hanno pensato a questo quando 20-30 anni fa fu' accettato dai cardiologi che la causa primaria dell'aterosclerosi e delle malattie cardiocircolatorie e' una lesione delle pareti delle arterie in un periodo di forte stress. Cosi' mi sono chiesto due o tre anni fa "perche' le pareti delle arterie subiscono una lesione?". Gli animali non subiscono queste lesioni quando sono stressati. Noi subiamo queste lesione perche' le nostre arterie sono deboli.

Perche' son deboli? Normalmente, le arterie degli animali vengono fortificate dai depositi di collagene. L'uomo non puo' produrre collagene senza la vitamina C. Gli uomini non assumono vitamina C a sufficienza, cosi' le loro arterie sono deboli. Cosi' a seguito delle varie fasi di sviluppo delle malattie cardiovascolari, arrivano le lesioni. Quindi, la carenza di vitamina C e' la causa primaria delle malattie cardiovascolari.

CHOWKA: Possiamo pensare che la diminuzione dell'incidenza delle malattie cardiocircolatorie in questo paese e' dovuta al fatto che gli americani prendono piu' integratori vitaminici e in particolar modo la vitamina C?

PAULING: Oh, si. Nel 1979, Emil Ginter (Ph.D.) pubblico' una lettera dicendo che c'era un parallelismo tra la diminuita mortalita' a causa di malattie cardiocircolatorie e l'aumentata assunzione di vitamina C negli Stati Uniti (9).

CHOWKA: Per molti anni lei e i suoi colleghi avete affrontato una battaglia contro il potere della medicina ufficiale per portare alla conoscienza di tutti le sue idee sulla vitamina C e per la medicina nutrizionale in generale.

PAULING: Io penso che sta' cambiando. Gli scienziati tendono a seguire le mie raccomandazioni ma ho molti piu' problemi con l'establishment medico. Sembrano essere prevenuti, non hanno la mente aperta rispetto all'informazione disponibile a riguardo delle vitamine e altri nutrienti in relazione a malattie come il cancro e molte altre.

Recentemente, durante l'ultimo anno, parte delle mie fatiche sono state dedicate a contrastare questa strana posizione dell'establishment medico: ora hanno accettato il fatto che gli antiossidanti assunti dall'alimentazione diminuiscono l'incidenza del cancro. Ma nei loro libri e articoli continuano a dire "ma non prendete integratori vitaminici". Questo e' completamente fuori da ogni logica secondo il mio punto di vista. Oltretutto non danno nessuna argomentazione valida per supportare queste dichiarazioni. Uno studio di James Enstrom (Ph.D.) e suoi associati mostra quanto possa essere efficace anche una piccola quantita' in piu' di vitamina C assunta in forma di integratori (10).

CHOWKA: Il suo commento sull'establishment medico suggerisce un'altra domanda. Nel 1982 lei disse che, secondo il suo punto di vista, soprattutto il pubblico americano fu responsabile per i cambiamenti nella medicina moderna, specialmente per gli importanti progressi (11). E' ancora il suo punto di vista oggi?

PAULING: Si! Penso che lo steso pubblico rispose meglio a quanto detto da me insieme a Cameron e me e Hoffer che non il mondo medico in generale. Dieci anni fa la gente mi diceva: "Ho detto al mio medico che prendo un grammo di vitamina C al giorno o tre grammi di vitamina C al giorno e lui mi ha risposto: "Non farlo, ti potrebbe uccidere, quelle vitamine sono velenose"". Cinque anni fa la gente ha cominciato a dirmi: "Ho detto al mio medico che prendo diversi grammi di vitamina C al giorno e lui mi ha detto: "Bene, non ti fara' male. Va pure avanti se vuoi. Probabilmente non ne avrai nessun giovamento, ma se vuoi prenderle continua pure".

Oggi mi dicono che i medici sono propensi nel dire: "Va bene, forse ti possono fare bene", specialmente quando i pazieni mostrano un aspetto migliore di quello che il medico si aspetta da loro e dicono: "Penso che la ragione possa essere l'alto dosaggio di vitamina C e vitamina E che sto' prendendo". Adesso i dottori tendono ad essere d'accordo con questo punto di vista. Non so' quanti dottori prendono l'iniziativa di prescrivere vitamine ai loro pazienti seriamente malati, ma penso che molti possano almeno essere aperti a questo.

CHOWKA: Cosa succede al Linus Pauling Institute di Scienze e Medicina in Palo Alto (California) che recentemente ha celebrato il suo 20Â° anniversario?

PAULING: I ricercatori stanno lavorando a diversi problemi, in particolar modo quelli che riguardano la vitamina C e altre vitamine in relazione alle malattie o, in alcuni casi, semplicemente la chimica di base delle vitamine. Un'osservazione che fecero circa tre anni fa, facendo delle ricerce in vitro e' che l'HIV, il virus implicato nell'AIDS, veniva controllato da concentrazioni moderatamente alte di vitamina C -- concentrazioni che si vedono nel flusso sanguigno prendendo dai 10 ai 20 grammi di vitamina C al giorno. Questa scoperta ha attratto l'attenzione dei ricercatori sull'AIDS del National Institutes of Health (NIH) a hanno preparato un test per determinare l'efficacia degli alti dosaggi di vitamina C nel cotrollare l'AIDS o l'infezione da HIV.

CHOWKA: Dr. Pauling, c'e' un certo numero di altri pionieri della scienza e medicina innovativa di questo secolo come Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (M.D., Ph.D.), che scopri la vitamina C. Sfortunatamente, sembra che molta della gente di oggi non e' cosi' informata circa il contributo di scienziati come lei e Szent-Gyorgyi. Mi piacerebbe chiederle, quindi, come le piacerebbe essere pensato e ricordanto, specialmente dalla gioventu' americana?

PAULING: Questa' e' una domanda complicata e per me e' difficile rispondere. Credo che le future generazioni penseranno a me come "l'uomo della vitamina C". Ma certamente questo non e' quello che io penso di me. Per vent'anni ho solamente ripetuto le cose che diceva Stone, cosi' come Szent-Gyorgyi stesso, circa il grande valore di alti dosaggi di vitamina C e altre vitamine. Ma Szent-Gyorgyi, che scropri e isolo' per primo la Vitamina C nel 1927, non fu' un grosso sostenitore dei megadosaggi vitaminici. Hoffer e Humphrey Osmond (M.D.), divennero molto dopo di lui i rappresentanti di altri dosaggi di vitamina C e niacina per i pazienti schizofrenici -- dosaggi che superavano 500 o 1000 volte gli RDA (12). Io fui molto impressionato da quello che scrissero Hoffer e Humphrey Osmond, cosi' come dalle analisi che fece Stone sulla vitamina C.

CHOWKA: E' ottimista per il futuro?

PAULING: Si, sicuramente! Sono apparentemente ottimista di natura. Sono stato ottimista sul controllo della guerra nucleare, ottimista rispetto ad un miglioramento dei rapporti tra l'Unione Sovietica e gli Stati Uniti e ottimista sulla medicina ortomolecolare. Oggi, molte persone sono convinte che la medicina ortomolecolare sia la medicina del futuro. E cosi', si, sono ottimista.

Peter Barry Chowka e' un giornalista, analista medico-politico, relatore e consulente. Per oltre vent'anni ha lavorato per la stampa, trasmissioni radio e ha documentato la promessa per un approccio innovativo e tradizionale alla salute. Chowka e' stato consulente di un canale televisivo e il Congresso degli Stati Uniti e membro dell'Ufficio delle medicine alternative del NIH.

REFERENZE:

1. Dembart, L. Los Angeles Times: E-4, February 2, 1996.
2. Stone, I. Vitamin C: The Healing Factor Against Disease. New York: Grosset and Dunlap, 1972.
3. Hoffer, A., & Pauling, L. Jnl Orthomolecular Med, 5: 143-154, 1990.
4. Hoffer, A., & Pauling, L. Jnl Orthomolecular Med, 8: 157-167, 1993.
5. Cameron, E., & Pauling, L. Op cit.
6. "Since then," Hoffer writes, "my series has expanded to over 700 patients, and the data we first reported shows the same beneficial response," Personal communication, Feb. 7, 1996.
7. Rath, M., & Pauling, L. Jnl Orthomolecular Med, 6: 125-134, 1991.
8. Rath, M., & Pauling, L. Jnl Orthomolecular Med, 7: 5-15, 1992.
9. Ginter, E. Am Jnl Clin Nutr, 32: 511, 1979.
10. Enstrom, J.E., Kanin, L.E., & Klein, M.A. Epidem, 3: 194-202, 1992.
11. Chowka, P.B. New Age , 8: 36-39, December 1982.
12. Osmond, H., & Hoffer, A. Lancet, 1: 316-319, 1962.

Questa intervista e' stata pubblicata per la prima volta nell'Aprile 1996 su Nutrition Science News.

**speedindust** · 06-03-2004, 08:31:15

Scusa Lupin, non ho letto ancora tutto quello che hai postato, quindi spero di non ripetere cosa gia detta ma avevo letto un intervista a Pauling dove diceva di aver somministrato 130 gr/die!!!!!!!!!!! di vit C per 9 anni !!!!!!!!!! ad un malato di cancro ricavandone beneficio.

ciao

amino vs pro ?

amino vs pro ?

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