C'mon guy GoLift contraction- barbell - light weight - OOOP - Booom - ShutUp Squeeze

[Sly83]

Purtroppo il curl con cheating mi fu fatale...ma di contro mi diede un enorme impulso a studiare i (presunti) perche' e per come del fatato mondo dell'autodistruzione a mezzo ghisa (e non solo)

[Bob Terwilliger]

Penso che in pochi abbiano la fortuna di potersi riempire di carbo senza diventare cicciobastardo.

Comunque peccato davvero per il Forum, visto che ora googlando ho trovato davvero poca roba

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Qualcosa si trova. Conwict era un moderatore di DatBTrue e preparatore.

Personally my all time favorite way to eat, and that which I use with most people I train (I mention this not in a solicitous way but to give some background), is carbless post-workout or CPWO for short.

It's an invention of my friend who goes by DatBtrue on the internet but I've run it with a couple hundred people at this point and find it can work for just about any goal.

It's simple: eat carbs before training. Don't eat carbs after training, for 5 or more hours. Carbs, and even elevated insulin, are not necessary for protein synthesis to occur. Consume carbs pre-workout, the day of training. After training you have a medium to large carbless protein shake followed by a couple of meals consisting of lean meat.

It works best with an alternate-day split, where you train every other day. Then on days you don't train, get out and walk, play, do some activity. On those days, start off with a fast... could be anywhere from 2-12 hours from the time you wake up.

There's a lot of good rationale for why this works for mass gain or fat loss but the cool part is I find that for the first month or two, using my assessment methods, people tend to get both. Then you need to "specialize" in either fat loss or mass gain (for most people it's fat loss since most people want, or at least need, to lose fat, and more than can occur in a month) by increasing fast-periods, or calories, respectively.

One of the keys is to do cardio and weights on different days and eat more food/protein on all days you lift. No fasting on lift days. It's nice for busy people who don't want to focus extensively every day on diet, since you can basically eat Atkins and/or fast all day on non lifting days.

has been some interest on this and i have seen this below run down of it written on Dats board by conwict who is a very clever guy so all credit to him as he uses it alot with clients to good effect.

I thought it was a good explanation of the basics

-------------------------------------------
This was written for another private forum, so "Larry," etc are not members here on DBT. It is more of a hard-ass forum that focused on fitness for self-defense/MAs, but I thought this piece might serve as a nice intro to those who are unfamiliar with the benefits of it. As always thanks Dat for laying the groundwork and doing the hard work of laying out the argument. This is really just a rephrasing of your hard work.


Three Intermediate Concepts

Today I’m going to introduce the first of three concepts I use with great success helping friends and clients. These are not “big rocks,”[1] because they involve manipulation of an already-solid protocol. Think of them as moving the big rocks around to make them fit better. The concepts are robust and fairly simple; another reason they are advanced is because they are conceptual, and not concrete or absolute. There is no “Do X, expect result Y,” but as stated the concepts involve some decision-making, which is a BAD thing for many people! I am going to give examples of the three concepts that will work as shown, but urge anyone who has been in the game a while to think of ways to apply these elsewhere.

The first concept is my favorite eating style, the “Carbless Post-workout” protocol, for which I give credit to my friend DatbTrue[2]. There are some rational and scientifically-based reasons for not consuming tons of carbs post-workout. One is that training heightens insulin sensitivity and consumption of carbs lowers insulin sensitivity.[3] By training and eating carbs, you are undoing some of the benefits you would have reaped. Insulin sensitivity, as stated by Larry, may not be a “big rock,” but it should be a lifelong priority – that is, if you find prevention of diabetes, possible prevention of Alzheimer’s disease, prevention of metabolic syndrome, ability to gain muscle rather than fat, and longevity important![4,5] And even cooler, if you’re a meathead, is that you increase muscle protein synthesis post-workout by avoiding carbs.[6] If you already fast, fasting the day after you train and use CPWO will increase lipolysis and fat oxidation – in other words, you will be able to use your adipose tissue (fat) more efficiently as fuel.[7]

CPWO is pretty simple; you don’t eat carbs post-workout, of course. Instead, you consume large amounts of protein and (depending on goals) moderate amounts of fat. The carbless period lasts from 5 to 48 hours (again: depending on goals) and I typically advise eating “to appetite” – in other words, you eat until full but not stuffed. This serves two purposes. One, satiety is a “good thing” for wellbeing and fat loss, because if you are full there is less chance of noncompliance with your eating plan; and two, because your food selection is limited to the more-filling, less-insulinogenic protein/fat macronutrients, you can stick closer to maintenance or even a deficit (and, for that matter, your body can still begin the recovery process in a slight deficit).

There are some major differences between CPWO and a “keto” (ketogenic) eating plan. First of all, CPWO does not attempt to use ketosis as a primary fat loss modality. Ketosis is great if it occurs, but it does not need to – you can still lose fat and do great if it does not. Second, instead of randomly-planned “refeed” days, CPWO utilizes planned and targeted “carb-ups,” always before some sort of physical activity. If you are training with weights, you always carb up. The day of weight training, eat 1 to 4 meals containing carbs and protein (limited, incidental amounts of fat are OK too) prior to training. As a guideline, you should get in 75-400g carbs total depending on your size, goals, and experience – play around and see how little you can get away with and still have a good workout, or how much you can eat and not put on fat, etc.

First, a few words about glycogen and carb consumption. For years, and to this day, supplement and “recovery drink” companies push sugary post-workout drinks on people who lift weights and do sports, to “replenish glycogen.” In fact, people argue about the “speed” of various carb sources to replenish glygocen. Replenishing muscle and liver glycogen is not necessary to induce protein synthesis or recovery; in fact, there is no need to replenish glycogen until the next physical activity session, if then.

Here are some guidelines to determine if you need carbs pre-activity. And remember, you never “need” carbs post-activity, unless you have another session hours away (e.g. during a day of competition).

You need carbs if:
-The majority of the session is resistance training
-Performance is a top priority, such as during a competition
-Your body is very inefficient at using fat for fuel and you “crash” easily (NB: if this is you, try to taper off the amount of carbs you consume gradually, over weeks or months)

You do not need carbs if:
-Fat burning is your primary goal
-You are training, but not competing (BJJ, cardio, etc)
If you perform the majority of your non-weight-training activity in a fasted state, you will improve your insulin sensitivity and ability to use fat for energy, and - if the big rocks are in place – will be healthier and leaner.


Here is a quick and dirty template with a few additional points:

-Pre-lifting, consume 75-400g carbs divided between 1-4 meals with 20-50g protein at each meal (more meals is better, but some people are forced to lift early, or don’t have time to eat more meals, etc). You should eat the last meal preferably no sooner than 1 hour before the workout.
-I advise consuming L-leucine during the workout due to the vast array of benefits on body composition, etc. [8] Consume 5g during the workout and nothing else.
-Immediately post-workout, consume 40-100g of protein only (depending on body size and goals) from whole foods or shake (this is the one time I typically ever have a protein shake).
-Whenever you are hungry past that point, for the following 5 to 48 hours, consume protein from whole foods, and zero carbs except from raw veggies. It is advisable to eat healthy fats (coconut oil, EVOO, avocado oil, fish oil, a few almonds, almond butter, eggs, butter, etc) at every other meal (amounts will vary depending on whether goal is mass gain, or fat loss).
-Before your next serious, performance-oriented activity session, or your next weight-training session, preferably the “day of,” repeat the “carbing up” process.
-You will probably have better results from fasting, and over a few weeks it may become easier (due to improved fat-burning-for-fuel), if you position the fasts to be on the day following weight training.

The first concept is my favorite eating style, the “Carbless Post-workout” protocol, for which I give credit to my friend DatbTrue[2]. There are some rational and scientifically-based reasons for not consuming tons of carbs post-workout.

One is that training heightens insulin sensitivity and consumption of carbs lowers insulin sensitivity.[3] By training and eating carbs, you are undoing some of the benefits you would have reaped. Insulin sensitivity, as stated by Larry, may not be a “big rock,” but it should be a lifelong priority – that is, if you find prevention of diabetes, possible prevention of Alzheimer’s disease, prevention of metabolic syndrome, ability to gain muscle rather than fat, and longevity important![4,5] And even cooler, if you’re a meathead, is that you increase muscle protein synthesis post-workout by avoiding carbs.[6] If you already fast, fasting the day after you train and use CPWO will increase lipolysis and fat oxidation – in other words, you will be able to use your adipose tissue (fat) more efficiently as fuel.[7]

CPWO is pretty simple; you don’t eat carbs post-workout, of course. Instead, you consume large amounts of protein and (depending on goals) moderate amounts of fat. The carbless period lasts from 5 to 48 hours (again: depending on goals) and I typically advise eating “to appetite” – in other words, you eat until full but not stuffed. This serves two purposes. One, satiety is a “good thing” for wellbeing and fat loss, because if you are full there is less chance of noncompliance with your eating plan; and two, because your food selection is limited to the more-filling, less-insulinogenic protein/fat macronutrients, you can stick closer to maintenance or even a deficit (and, for that matter, your body can still begin the recovery process in a slight deficit).

There are some major differences between CPWO and a “keto” (ketogenic) eating plan. First of all, CPWO does not attempt to use ketosis as a primary fat loss modality. Ketosis is great if it occurs, but it does not need to – you can still lose fat and do great if it does not. Second, instead of randomly-planned “refeed” days, CPWO utilizes planned and targeted “carb-ups,” always before some sort of physical activity. If you are training with weights, you always carb up. The day of weight training, eat 1 to 4 meals containing carbs and protein (limited, incidental amounts of fat are OK too) prior to training. As a guideline, you should get in 75-400g carbs total depending on your size, goals, and experience – play around and see how little you can get away with and still have a good workout, or how much you can eat and not put on fat, etc.

First, a few words about glycogen and carb consumption. For years, and to this day, supplement and “recovery drink” companies push sugary post-workout drinks on people who lift weights and do sports, to “replenish glycogen.” In fact, people argue about the “speed” of various carb sources to replenish glygocen as if speed were of the essence. But replenishing muscle and liver glycogen is not necessary to induce protein synthesis or recovery; in fact, there is no need to replenish glycogen until the next physical activity session, if then.Here are some guidelines to determine if you need carbs pre-activity. And remember, you never “need” carbs post-activity, unless you have another session a few hours away (e.g. during a day of competition).

You need carbs priorto exercise if:

-The majority of the upcoming session is resistance training
-Performance is a top priority, such as during a competition
-Your body is very inefficient at using fat for fuel and you “crash” easily (NB: if this is you, try to taper off the amount of carbs you consume gradually, over weeks or months)

You do not need carbs if:
-Fat burning is your primary goal
-You are training, but not competing during this particular session (BJJ, cardio, etc)

If you perform the majority of your non-weight-training activity in a fasted state, you will improve your insulin sensitivity and ability to use fat for energy, and - if the big rocks are in place – will be healthier and leaner.Here is a quick and dirty template with a few additional points:

-Pre-lifting, consume 75-400g carbs divided between 1-4 meals with 20-50g protein at each meal (more meals is better, but some people are forced to lift early, or don’t have time to eat more meals, etc). You should eat the last meal preferably no sooner than 1 hour before the workout.

-I advise consuming L-leucine during the workout due to the vast array of benefits on body composition, etc. [8] Consume 5g during the workout and nothing else. (NB: dat would suggest glutamine and perhaps some glycine here for max benefit)

-Immediately post-workout, consume 40-100g of protein only (depending on body size and goals) from whole foods or shake (this is the one time I typically ever have a protein shake).

-Whenever you are hungry past that point, for the following 5 to 48 hours, consume protein from whole foods, and zero carbs except from raw veggies. It is advisable to eat healthy fats (coconut oil, EVOO, avocado oil, fish oil, a few almonds, almond butter, eggs, butter, etc) at every other meal (amounts will vary depending on whether goal is mass gain, or fat loss).

-Before your next serious, performance-oriented activity session, or your next weight-training session, preferably the “day of,” repeat the “carbing up” process.

-You will probably have better results from fasting if you also use CPWO, and if you position the fasts to be on the day following weight training. Over time it will get easier to fast, too.

[Bob Terwilliger]

Comunque Feghel se cerchi in giro sul web potresti trovare dei riferimenti a una versione del CPWO fatta con una sostanza vietata. Non potendola nominare, la chiamerò "insuliccia".
Erano gli esperimenti iniziali sul CPWO e sono stati sconsigliati anche da Dat, perché notò che aveva gli stessi effetti con o senza iniezioni di insuliccia. Quindi, data la pericolosità molto alta della sostanza, non vale proprio la pena di fare la versione originale del CPWO.

[Feghel]

Comunque Feghel se cerchi in giro sul web potresti trovare dei riferimenti a una versione del CPWO fatta con una sostanza vietata. Non potendola nominare, la chiamerò "insuliccia".
Erano gli esperimenti iniziali sul CPWO e sono stati sconsigliati anche da Dat, perché notò che aveva gli stessi effetti con o senza iniezioni di insuliccia. Quindi, data la pericolosità molto alta della sostanza, non vale proprio la pena di fare la versione originale del CPWO.

Grazie mille Bob, ho dato un'occhiata veloce e diciamo che sembra esserci tutto l'approccio con quote indicative ecc, me lo salvo

Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Nemesis84]

L'argomento esercizi "pericolosi" è molto interessante: io lento dietro e lat dietro la nuca li ho sempre fatti anche relativamente pesanti, ma sempre controllati proprio perchè il movimento lo sentivo "meno naturale" per esempio di una military in piedi con cui provo anche triple e doppie, come diceva Sly anche il periodo/fase incidono sulla scelta degli esercizi. Sulle tirate al mento mi trovo bene a farle con i kettlebell in drop set.
Squat lo facevo e mi piaceva farlo, i carichi salivano bene finchè durante un riscaldamento il ginocchio sinistro ha fatto crack, da lì mollato per più di un anno preferendo carichi guidati, poi mi sono impuntato che dovevo ricominciare e l'ho fatto ma la "paura" era così forte che ho dovuto ricominciare con 40kg e anche adesso non mi fido oltre i 110kg pur sentendo di aver la forza perchè appena il ginocchio si "affatica" lascio perdere. Però, almeno su di me, il lavoro che fanno squat e stacchi anche a livello di bacino è imparagonabile alle presse dove per esempio carico discretamente.
Personalmente, tranne rari casi di impedimenti anatomici/fisiologici, più che esercizi pericolosi, ci sono esecuzioni o momenti sbagliati per farli.

[Greg999]

Io lo squat l'ho iniziato ad imparare da zero , dopo un infortunio e dopo almeno 2 che non lo facevo e utilizzavo macchinari, hip belt squat, varianti con manubri ecc... Sarei anche riuscito ad impararlo abbastanza bene(faccio l'high bar), ma lo uso prevalentemente come esercizi di forza e attivazione! In realtà se dovessi fare quello, per colpa anche delle mie leve, mi crescerebbe tutto fuorchè i quads(infatti per sentirli devo per forza limitare il peso). Puntassi poi al carico toccherebbe passare ad un low bar per ovvi motivi. Insomma mi piace farlo, ma effettivamente potrei tranquillamente passare ad altro. Front squat invece molto meglio per me: mi consente di scendere molto(anche se sento molta attivazione dei glutei) e avere la schiena molto più perpendicolare... Avvolte preferisco le varianti dei fondamentali che i fondamentali stessi, infatti appena arriverò ad un buon livello di attivaizone e forza credo passare alle varianti.

[MarcoT]

Vedo persone che in massa a 400/500 g di Cho ( e mi fa incazzare che a quelle quote fanno comunque una massa non sporca ) spingono come bastardi.
Comunque ora provo ad attuare una forte restrizione calorica 4 giorni + ricarica + 2 giorni di leggera Ipo.
Vediamo se cambia qualcosa con questo approccio ciclico

Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk

io a quelle quote riesco a salire mantenendomi sotto al 15%

[Sly83]

Io lo squat l'ho iniziato ad imparare da zero , dopo un infortunio e dopo almeno 2 che non lo facevo e utilizzavo macchinari, hip belt squat, varianti con manubri ecc... Sarei anche riuscito ad impararlo abbastanza bene(faccio l'high bar), ma lo uso prevalentemente come esercizi di forza e attivazione! In realtà se dovessi fare quello, per colpa anche delle mie leve, mi crescerebbe tutto fuorchè i quads(infatti per sentirli devo per forza limitare il peso). Puntassi poi al carico toccherebbe passare ad un low bar per ovvi motivi. Insomma mi piace farlo, ma effettivamente potrei tranquillamente passare ad altro. Front squat invece molto meglio per me: mi consente di scendere molto(anche se sento molta attivazione dei glutei) e avere la schiena molto più perpendicolare... Avvolte preferisco le varianti dei fondamentali che i fondamentali stessi, infatti appena arriverò ad un buon livello di attivaizone e forza credo passare alle varianti.

bravo facevo giusto un discorso simile sul mio diario in questi giorni

[Nemesis84]

e niente, risistemato la dieta e settimana scorsa ho avuto benefici evidenti, questa settimana è stata super stressante e altro calo di peso e di forza, non c'è nulla da fare la testa comanda e incide. Volevo allenarmi anche domai ma stacco tutto due giorni e vedo se migliora la situazione, sta volta ho esagerato.

[Gore]

io avrei bisogno di uno stop... e attendo la prima settimana di agosto dove sarò in ferie... però sono in declino ....
concentrazione sulla alimentazione in calo...
potenza in calo...
dolori in aumento....
ma fermarmi ora , per poi riprendere 2 settimane e poi fermarmi di nuovo... solo l'idea mi fa incazzare...

[Sly83]

Personalmente ho in programma una riduzione della frequenza e del volume per le prossime tre settimane, per far recuperare il sistema (non siamo solo muscoli altrimenti sarebbe ben facile :-D )Al momento sono al mio top dell'anno come forma in se' ma non me la sento di spingere oltre per preservarmi

[Luke91]

Ho ridotto frequenza e volume per via di una sospetta piccola infiammazione al clb e sto meglio di prima.
(per fabi) Ieri mi ha dato un occhiata veloce un cliente fisio e ha detto che non è nulla di chè, i suoi test non mi facevano male, l'unico problama è che ho escluso una buona parte di esercizi, vediamo un pò, finchè mi vedo bene continuo, ma come routine è la stessa, o simile, da diversi mesi. Sto facendo Petto bicipiti addome, gambe full addome, dorso spalle trici addome, un giorno si uno no.

Spiegatemi una cosa, che è banalissima ma c'ho fatto caso solo ora, tutti hanno da fare con sta multi cazzi e mazzi, però molti di questi allenano le gambe in mono pura una volta a week, eppure spesso sono messi abbastanza bene e progrediscono con costanza, sono le gambe che rispondono diversamente rispetto all'upper, o sono loro che so stronz1?

Per quanto la mia esperienza sia minima, al momento la mia conclusione è che per i muscoli grandi ci vogliono allenamenti voluminosi ma non troppo frequenti, quindi uno pesante più al limite un richiamo, mentre per i distretti piccoli frequenze più alte ma volume ridotto.

[NaturalHardCore]

Considera che spesso lo sviluppo delle gambe è il criterio di spartizione tra il palestrato ed il culturista, ho conosciuto diverse persone che avendo le gambe indietro facevano due sessioni a settimana o anche tre con volume totale ovviamente alto. Certo più un muscolo è grande maggiore è il volume che può tollerare, magari in una settimana e per brevi periodi le gambe possono tollerare anche 50 serie cosa improponibile se non a fine di shock per le braccia.

[Nemesis84]

Io le gambe tranne brevi periodi le alleno una sola volta a settimana, ma con wo alla morte con il trittico squat - pressa - affondi tutti pesanti e poi due ex più leggeri di isolamento.

[Gore]

io le gambe 1 volta per week... per brevi periodi le facevo ruotare ogni 5 giorni...
ora sono a 1 per week e 2 cardio hiit...
devo dire che incide parecchio sui recuperi...
anche i polpacci ho ridotto le sedute da 3 fisse a 2 o 3... perchè effettivamente mi risultavano parecchio affaticati e quasi costantemente dolenti...