*** Professional BBing x Avanzati ***

[menphisdaemon]

Eh eh..che bello, vi ho scatenati un pò!!!

Post magnifico Doc, da rep appena posso perchè hai espresso al meglio ciò che io ho solo accennato...
Mi permetto di aggiungere un'altra considerazione che non hi scritto e che può essere un motivo per scegliere la mia teoria: quante volte vi sarà capitato il giorno dopo la ricarica di essere ingolfati e di non riuscire ad essere prestanti nel WO del gruppo carente proprio per quelle sensazioni di letargia, ingolfamento intestinale ecc ecc??! Ecco il perchè del fare riposare l'organismo nella prima parte della giornata e quindi non fare sostanzialmente 2 high carbs consecutivi.
Certo qui parlo sempre di quella che ho definito carb cycl all'italiana con refeed o cheat..intendiamoci.

@ Criss
Mi hai fatto sorridere perchè è quello che ho pensato anche io tante volte pur non gareggiando. Lo dicevo anche al Doc e a Fabio...la miglior condizione l'ho sempre avuta il sabato mattina quindi prima della mia solita ricarica pesante e scarico di liquidi perchè il venerdì notte dormo sempre poco. Ti dirò..se non si hanno grosse masse da riempire (glicogeno+acqua-->volume) come il sottoscritto, non la vedo una cattiva idea quella di andare con quella svenatura e durezza tipica del pre ricarica. Ma in gara francamente non vedo quasi nessuno adottare questa strategia...meglio come dice Filippo una mini ricarica.

@ Doc
Bellissimo ma non ho capito una frase "problema sta quando si deve passare alle fasi successive.....e lì dopo la situazione può e anzi deve cambiare, specie se siamo in un ipotetico precontest"
Nel senso che secondo te l'approccio di dare i chos post non è attuabile nel pre contest in cui vedi meglio rest low e on high (relativamente dato che saremo in semiketo o giù di li..)??

[dr.j]

@ Doc
Bellissimo ma non ho capito una frase "problema sta quando si deve passare alle fasi successive.....e lì dopo la situazione può e anzi deve cambiare, specie se siamo in un ipotetico precontest"
Nel senso che secondo te l'approccio di dare i chos post non è attuabile nel pre contest in cui vedi meglio rest low e on high (relativamente dato che saremo in semiketo o giù di li..)??

No Marco, è molto più semplice, volevo dire che dopo le combinazioni e i quantitativi per forza devono cambiare......tenendo presente che i carbs POST WO generalmente restano una costante......non si può andare avanti tantissimo neanche con una rotazione di 300-200-100-100-100, 300-0-150-100-100..........High,low e mods.........per non parlare delle vere cheto..........questo lo sai bene no? arriva sempre un punto di blocco, di stallo o di rallentamento, che il sottoscritto cerca sempre di anticipare o tempisticamente prenderlo in pieno contropiede, variando prima ogni 2-3 max weeks la dieta prima e ascoltando le sensazioni percepite e visive dell'atleta......fondamentale qui il ruolo di un vero prep coach.........Alby e chi si occupa di competitors sa quello che intendo e ben venga l'esperienza oltre che competenza tecnica.........
Ti faccio un esempio concreto, quando si arriva alla fatidica semi-cheto o very low cars che dir si voglia, un punto che mai è cambiato per tutti i miei discepoli da sempre era il pasto postwo, che fossero 30 o 50gr, quelli rimanevano, l'altra parte (se c'era) poteva essere al mattino o nel pre-wo, il resto era pro+fats o pro+veggies

[dr.j]

p.s. GRAZIE DELLA REP FABIO

[menphisdaemon]

Chiarissimo.Grazie mille...purtroppo mi manca moooolta esperienza!!

[dr.j]

Quella la si fa col tempo Menph.....don't worry! apprendi come fai più che puoi poi metti in pratica su te e sui tuoi allievi.....nel frattempo apri gli occhi alle reazioni soggettive che ogni azione ha su un organismo...............coraggio Marco, sei giovane!

[DORIAN]

p.s. GRAZIE DELLA REP FABIO

Ma figurati.
Allora oggi sn un po' in vena dai...
a prescidere dalla cycling o meno resto sempre del parere che il timing per l'assunzione dei chos sia determinante in ogni approccio aliementare e in ogni regime e protocollo..
il post w.o. sappiamo sia un must e come tale deve rimanere la finestra in cui si assume il maggior quantitativo glucidico della giornata perche' che dir si voglia e' l'unico momento in cui siamo sicuri che i carbo(a prescidnere dal tipo di metabolismo e morfotipo di soggetto)vadano ben utilizzati dall'organismo senza rischio alcuno...Anzi sfruttati al meglio sia per l'idratazione sia per la ricostruzione della cellula e famosa spinta anabolica...non a livello proteico ma da meccanismo di ripristino e attivazione dei meccanismi anabolici.
Al fine pratico poi conta sempre l'in-take calorico complessivo ma giocare cn i glucidi e assumerli con le tempistiche e cn i dosaggi corretti ci permette di migliorare notevolmente la composizione corporea...
Anche la scelta degli alimenti e' determinante ovvio..
Credo cmq che rimanendo in un piano di praticita' se si desidera rimanere magri tutto l'anno non vadan mai dimenticati questi passaggi e che il tetto max di cho die non puo' superarecerte soglie a meno che nn si tratti di soggetti cn met super ma come ben sappiamo l'80% della popolazione gestisce male gli zuccheri che vanno cmq ben dosati...
La soglia che suggerisco e' quella dei 40-50g per pasto per evitare impennate insuliniche gratuite a meno che nn si tratti di post w.o. o colazione anche se qui e' meglio andarci cmq piano in quanto la sensibilita' insulinica non e' al top come si VOCIFERA da anni..
scusate se mi sn dilunguato..considerazione della sera.

[dr.j]

Per Federico (Mezzo) e per tutti gli altri numerosi seguaci desiderosi di sapere......non posterò materiale "top secret" sul Dogg Crapp, ma vi allego un'ottima e chiara delucidazione dei principi chiave.........state attenti!Sperando che capiate l'inglese.......buona lettura, questo post è molto importante per fare luce:

ffice:smarttags" name="metricconverter"> Full Musclemag International Interview

---

****I know its probably different than what you saw in the magazine......special thanks to Super D, Homonuncleus, Kidrok, and Scott Mcdonough for their input and help.


Interview with Dante Trudel
MMI#322

Training Questions

1) What is Doggcrapp Training? Besides the misnomer of a name? About 10 years ago on a very small online bodybuilding messageboard I made the BIG MISTAKE of talking about my methods using the anomynous made-up name of "Doggcrapp". Never in a million years thinking it would explode into what you see today. People started using my ideas, gained muscle mass very quickly, they told friends and associates and on and on it went like a wildfire right across the internet to where I have absolutely no control of it any more. Note to self: 'Use some foresight next time Dante, you knew your ideas worked very well, you should of saw this coming you idiot (laughing)'. In explanatory terms, DC training is a system of bodybuilding that encompasses short, intense training, increased training frequency yet with adequate rest and recovery time, a specific diet plan and cardio, in order to make someone absolutely the largest muscular individual (that their unique genetics will allow) in the shortest time frame possible. It really is not for young teens or weekend warriors, it honestly is for intermediate to highly advanced bodybuilders who know their way around the gym and are in-tune with their own bodies.....because it takes a very high level of dedication and fortitude in all areas to do this system correctly.


2) What are the basic training principles behind Doggcrapp? I strongly believe in “He who makes the greatest strength gains on productive exercises (coupled with adequate food and recovery) makes the greatest size gains.” My methods are based on continual PROGRESSION which is tracked by keeping a workout logbook. Progression on key exercises, preferably basic compound exercises whenever possible, in a safe rep range, always striving to add more weight and/or more reps. Along with that main principle is what I consider the greatest facet to strength progression, 'multi-rep rest pause training'. To add along with those thoughts, I believe in the following: lower volume but increased training frequency, blasting and cruising (which is training all out for many weeks and then taking a rest/maintenance phase for 7 to 14 days usually), higher protein intake for muscle growth, cardio to increase metabolism, valuable supplements used according to that individual’s requirements as dictated by their blood-work results and other physical needs, carbohydrate cutoffs to stay lean in the off-season while gaining muscle mass and of course “extreme stretching”.

3) How did this theory come about (over a period of how long, where the idea came from etc.)? I started publishing my thoughts on higher rep rest-pause training, high protein intakes, and the other foundations to my ideas etc in 1992 through 1995 with a newsletter/magazine I published called Hardcore Muscle, but I had been testing these theories on myself and others for years previous to that. I just had gotten to a point where I thought bodybuilding methodology seemed to be based on obsessive compulsion ("more is better") rather than a logical understanding of what builds muscle mass. I have an engineering degree and applied that training to bodybuiling: isolate the variables that really contribute to building muscle and apply that information. I got rid of all the ridiculous fluff that obsessive compulsive bodybuilders were doing and broke it down to the bare basics for myself. From a training standpoint, I started at the RESULT and worked my way backwards: The bigger bodybuilder is a stronger bodybuilder, so if you create a program that builds strength (and pay attention to the dietary and other factors that favor muscle growth), you will create a larger, more muscular bodybuilder. That mode of thought, plus interviewing a great number of the largest bodybuilders (in the NPC and IFBB) back in the 90’s, plus just having a keen sense of observation, molded my opinions into what they were. As for rapid muscle mass accumulation, one thing that kept repeating itself over and over was that the largest thickest guys were powerbuilders more than pump bodybuilders, meaning they used the heaviest weights in good form for whatever exercise they were doing. So again I removed the useless fluff and obsession compulsion for myself and concentrated on what was making not only pros but the local gym rat bigger. And it sure wasn’t the one hand peak contracted triceps pushdown with a single cable with the pinky cocked counterclockwise to bring about the mind muscle connection...it was the big MF in the corner who started out close grip benching 185 for 12 and ended up years later at 405 for 12.

4) What is extreme stretching and what is its purpose? Extreme stretching is putting the muscle in a stretched position under load for a period of time. It is somewhat controversial. I have been talking about Extreme Stretching for about 17 years now but I want to make something very clear. I was doing a thesis on Hyperplasia and I theorized that Extreme Stretching might be able to go down that road….as was shown many years earlier with the bird wing studies. John Parillo was before me though and he started the extreme stretching movement as it relates to fascia stretching. I just want to make that clear as I feel John has earned that respect. Extreme stretching definitely does something special for a great many people….I’ve gotten 1000’s of emails to prove that point and I know its not a placebo effect….I believe highly in its merits. As to what is really going on here physiologically, this again is somewhat controversial. There have been many online arguments about fascia stretching or whether hyperplasia can be induced through extreme stretching. But I am unsure of the exact mechanism of why it works so well, and anybody who says they 100% know are mistaken because it really has yet to be determined by science. This is what we do know as various studies have told us…..under various circumstance a stretched muscle under load has produced hyperplasia, an increase in IGF-1, an increase in MGF (2 very potent growth factors), increased protein synthesis, and increased the long-term production of prostaglandin F2 alpha, an anabolic stimulator of myofiber growth. I've gotten reports of (for lack of better terms) “an enhanced roundness” with extreme stretching particularly in the chest, quads, triceps. Its very rare you get someone who doesn’t report beneficial results.
5) When do you apply extreme stretching and for how long do you hold each stretch? Extreme stretching is done while that muscle is still pumped, after training each body part or group of related body parts like chest shoulders triceps and typically held for 60-90 seconds.

6) Why do you use rest pause over other techniques? I found that Rest Pause (done my way) created the greatest strength increases of any principle out there. I really should clarify one thing. In my laziness 17 years ago I really should of named it something other than “rest pause” because a true Rest Pause set is 6 almost maximum effort singles with 10 seconds rest between each single. That is a true rest pause. I have never been one for fanfare or celebrity and I just named what I did rest pause too because it seemed somewhat close to rest pausing. What I do is go to failure 3 times during a set on the way to 11-15 reps or 11-20 reps (depending on the exercise. So hypothetically someone would go to failure at 8 reps, put the weight down and then take 10-15 deep breathes and then go to failure again (hypothetically 3-4 more reps) put the weight down and then take 10-15 deep breathes and then go to failure one more time (hypothetically 1-3 reps). It is basically a way of extending the set, so you get more reps with a heavier weight than you would with a straight set. Because of my laziness in not naming it something else, it has caused great confusion nowadays as it pertains to the definition of Rest Pause. As with the moniker Doggcrapp, I should of thought that one out too…(laughing)

7) Is rest pause used on every exercise? If not, please explain when and why you would use it.
Rest pause is not conducive to quad exercises and some back thickness exercises due to safety and form reasons. Note that for back we split exercises into those to hit back “width” and those that hit back “thickness”. For quads (after 1-5 progressive weight warm-up sets depending on the individuals strength levels), I will generally have someone do a very heavy 9-12 rep straight set followed up(after adequate rest) with an even heavier 5-8 rep set and then (after adequate rest again) a 20 rep “widowmaker set” done with as heavy of weight as can be used for 20 reps. Back thickness is generally done with two straight sets as well due to safety issues with the lower back, a heavy set of 9-12 and after rest an even heavier 5-8 rep set. Calves are done with their own protocol of exploding up on the big toe, then slowly lowering, approximately 5 seconds to the stretch position and holding that for 10-15 seconds… 8-12 reps like that and it will be excruciating. Forearms are also straight sets generally for 11-20 reps. Rest pause is used for all other movements, chest shoulders triceps backwidth and certain hamstring movements and generally done with 11-15 total reps or even up to 20-30 rest-paused for certain people on movements that require more safety.

8) What is the reason for the deep breathing between sets (also explain when to apply it)? How do you determine the number of breaths for each?
Oxygen, the key to rapid recovery is oxygen. The deep breathing done between rest pause sets is to force as much oxygen into the body as possible so that in 20-30 seconds (usually the time I like most trainees to take for their 10-15 deep breaths) the lifter is ready to go again. All that breathing ensures that carbon dioxide is released, too, which is the most important way of buffering the lactic acid produced in the working muscles during an all-out exercise situation.
The deep breaths are done in between each part of the rest pause. A hypothetical set of incline bench press after warm-ups might look like…
a. 275 8 reps to failure (rack the weight)+10-15 deep breaths
b. 275 2-4 reps to failure (rack)+ 10-15 deep breaths
c. 275 1-3 reps to failure (rack) and done or optional static hold.
The static hold is typically only performed on chest, shoulder, back width or bicep movements and for safety should be exercises done on machines. It is merely holding the weight at the sticking point of the movement and doing short 2”-3” pumping reps. This technique adds to the intensity of an exercise at the end, and is optional.

9) Define the “Blasting and Cruising” phases.
Realizing that the body has a finite ability to recover from the stress of working out and that training all-out 'balls to the wall' inevitably leads to overtraining and/or injuries, I started experimenting with different ways of moderating workout volume, intensity and frequency. This formed the reasoning behind my 'blasting' and 'cruising' phases that are an integral part of DC training. We all know that you have to work out with intensity to stimulate an adaptive response in the body sufficient to cause muscular growth but as stated, you cannot train in this manner without intermittent periods of rest, or 'cruises' as I call them. Blast phases usually last for 7-10 weeks sometimes a little longer if it's someone with superior recovery genetics. During this time we're doing everything possible to increase strength and size incorporating rest pause sets, extreme stretching, high protein intake, specific supplements to aid recovery (BCAA's, etc...).
The Cruise phase which lasts anywhere from 7-21 days (though 10 days to two weeks is most common) is all about resting the body and recouping from the previous blast while preparing for the upcoming one. Workouts during this time are far less intense (no rest pause sets or training to complete muscular failure) and the focus is on maintenance and getting the mind and body fully ready for the next upcoming assault on the weights. During this time workouts are scaled back and all intensity techniques (rest pause, static holds, slow negatives) are removed in order to allow the body to repair and recover. It is also a good time to experiment with new exercises to see if they may work well in the next blast. I’ve even had people just take 7-10 days completely off, it really up to the individual….but the “cruise phase” must be done.

The significance is that we blast and cruise and blast and cruise all year long. Its just impossible to push the limits with food training and intensity year round so I give people cruises just to gather themselves, get their appetite for both food and training back, and give the joints a break from the heavy weights----all in preparation for a huge blasting push again. Think
of it as three steps forward, one step back so to speak.

10) Please provide Dusty’s full arm and back training routine

Dusty Hanshaw was a big advanced bodybuilder who needed another step up in overall mass and also to bring his back and his arms up to match his outstanding legs and shoulders. I am very proud of Dusty, not only is he an outstanding person and a friend, he is an extremely hard training bodybuilder.....as hardcore as anyone out there. He followed everything to the letter that I wanted him to do in the offseason and walked onstage at the 2008 Border States Championships with just too much musclemass and too much conditioning for anyone to deal with....and took not only the Superheavyweight class but the whole show.
So with advanced bodybuilders like Dusty as shown below in #11, I put them on the 3 way split and I have use a certain technique to get up their weak bodyparts that might be lagging behind.

Dusty did his biceps and back day

1) Preacher Curls (after fully warming up through progressive sets, this is rest paused out for a set of 20 reps *hypothetically 10+6+4 = 20 reps rest paused)
2) Dumbell crossbody "pinwheel" hammer curls (these are done for forearms and we usually straight set forearms for 11-20 reps one all out set after progressive warmups)
3) Alternating dumbell curls (A "widowmaker exercise" a special key bodypart exercise I put a person on, in this case to get Dusty's biceps up in size pronto. This exercise usually starts out at 20-30 reps with a certain weight and over months and months of time the weight goes up progressively and the reps come down slowly until they are in the 8-10 range.....one all out set
(Biceps stretch with arms to the rear)
4) Weighted Pullups rest paused out for 11-20 reps
5) Hammerstrength pulldowns (widowmaker exercise done for back width, again starts out at 20-30 reps and over months and months of time gets ever increasingly heavier while the reps come down slowly)....one all out set
6) T-bar rows--done in straight sets.....as a restpause on a heavy back thickness movement could cause loss of good form and potential injury. After progressive warmups one all out set for 11-15 reps and one all out set for 6-10 reps
(Hanging lat width stretch with weights)


11) Please provide a sample 7-day bodypart split. Everyone starts DC training with what I call the two way split. The body is split in half and done on three non consecutive days per week as follows
Monday- Chest Shoulders Triceps Back Width Back Thickness
Wednesday- Biceps Forearms Calves Hamstrings Quads
Friday- Chest Shoulders Triceps Back Width Back Thickness
Monday (the next week)- Biceps Forearms Calves Hamstrings Quads
Wednesday- Chest Shoulders Triceps Back Width Back Thickness
Friday- Biceps Forearms Calves Hamstrings Quads

The whole body is trained twice every eight days in this fashion.

For advanced trainees who have done the two way and need to work on lagging body parts I have them move to a 3 way split of pull/push/legs rotated over four days like this
Monday Biceps Forearms Back Width Back Thickness
Tuesday Chest Shoulders Triceps
Thursday Calves Hamstrings Quads
Friday Biceps Forearms Back Width Back Thickness
And the rotation continues the following week. The frequency of body parts hit is slightly less than the two way so the overall growth will be slower but it allows a little more room for advanced techniques I will use to work on weak points


Biographical Questions

1) Where is your current place of residence?
San Diego California ( I grew up in Massachusetts though and i do not miss scraping the ice off my windshield or shoveling out my car every morning)

2) What is your age?
Just turned 40

3) How many professional athletes do you currently train?
I haven’t taken on any new trainees since September of 2007 because I was really getting burnout. Everybody and their brother wanted me to train them and I just had gotten to the point I needed a lengthy break from training people….so now I have my protégé Dan (who has been with me for 6-7 years) take people through the paces. I post regularly on Intensemuscle.com in the Doggpound and encourage people to visit that site if they want to know more about DC training. There are many reknowned people on that site including contest prep trainers Ken Skip Hill and Scott Stevenson.

4) How many amateur athletes do you current train?
As most people know I co-own Trueprotein.com and that is currently taking up the bulk of any and all free time I have but I still correspond with my former pro and amateur athletes….I like to keep up to date with them and still help them with questions they have or tweak things as neccesary

How long have you been involved in bodybuilding as an athlete and a trainer? Since 1992.

[Mezzo86]

Grazie Gabry..altra ottima delucidazone!

[EGMario86]

Memp son daccordo con te sulla preferenza verso la versione impostata qui sul forum della carb cycling visto che quella di thib è mooolto restrittiva sopratutto per chi non è in preprazione gara, diciamo che la versione massa è abbastanza difficile da seguirevuoi per la difficoltà di ripartire in solo 3 pasti l'alto numero di chos vuoi per la mancanza di giorni in cui spararsi un bel cheat meal visto che i giorni rest devono essere low carbs... e il cheat supersporco non è bellissimo da effettuare post-wo, al massimo lo vedrei bene nella giornata high cho a colazione ma li è poca la voglia di sgarrare.

[zanelike]

ora mi verranno migliaia di srep

ma andrò contro corrente...non sono un fautore del cheat meal o reffed che sia...

mi spiego:

prendo me ad esempio, abituato ad allenarmi sempre 6 volte a settimana ora ho un programma di 4 volte a settimana ( dure certmente, ma solamente 4con cardio l'ultimo giorno) carbo alti 360e 260 nei giorni rest..una vera pacchia

tutto questo per me non è assolutamente andare al limite anzi...ripeto è una pacchia continuanon penso ora mi sia utlite sgarrare da cheat meal o ricaricare da refeed.
per questo mi sto mantenendo molto bene, imho sotto al 12% adessopur aumentando pian piano le misure...

infatti non prevedo sgarri alcuni fino a date prestabilite( natale)

[DORIAN]

se le kcals sn sufficienti difatti non e' necessario un free meal o una ricarica filippo..lo sarebbe qualora si ricercasse un aumento ponderale delle kcals o un pasto shock a livello metabolico in fasi di stallo,specie in dimagrimento oppure ai fini enzimatici qualora l'alimentazione non sia varia...tutto qui..ma sn daccordo cn te sul fatto che specie in high cal nn e' FONDAMENTALE.

[zanelike]

se le kcals sn sufficienti difatti non e' necessario un free meal o una ricarica filippo..lo sarebbe qualora si ricercasse un aumento ponderale delle kcals o un pasto shock a livello metabolico in fasi di stallo,specie in dimagrimento oppure ai fini enzimatici qualora l'alimentazione non sia varia...tutto qui..ma sn daccordo cn te sul fatto che specie in high cal nn e' FONDAMENTALE.

[zanelike]

non aggiungo altro

IFBB - Junior\'s Corner


non voglio perdere tempo ulteriore!

[menphisdaemon]

se le kcals sn sufficienti difatti non e' necessario un free meal o una ricarica filippo..lo sarebbe qualora si ricercasse un aumento ponderale delle kcals o un pasto shock a livello metabolico in fasi di stallo,specie in dimagrimento oppure ai fini enzimatici qualora l'alimentazione non sia varia...tutto qui..ma sn daccordo cn te sul fatto che specie in high cal nn e' FONDAMENTALE.

Oltretutto quando arrivi a quote tipo 380-300 o 340 che siano ti passa pure la voglia del cheat (perchè di refeed non se ne parla a meno che uno non abbia un MB alle stelle)...sei già più che appagato dalla quantità di cibo: quello che può accadere è che magari ti concedi cibi meno indicati in un pasto a settimana ma facendoli rientrare nel computo giornaliero...

[EGMario86]

Oltretutto quando arrivi a quote tipo 380-300 o 340 che siano ti passa pure la voglia del cheat (perchè di refeed non se ne parla a meno che uno non abbia un MB alle stelle)...sei già più che appagato dalla quantità di cibo: quello che può accadere è che magari ti concedi cibi meno indicati in un pasto a settimana ma facendoli rientrare nel computo giornaliero...

esatto concordo, i cheat in massa diventano piu che altro una sostituzione alimentare differente da quelli previsti nel menu con conteggio calorico simile